Mike Fink | Making Tough Life Decisions, Finding Clarity, & The Impact of Divorce

“You can do anything, but you can’t do everything.” ~ Mike Fink

Guest Bio: Mike Fink is an Author, coach, and inventor of a revolutionary clarity and decision-making process called The Decoding ™) Grid™ . This process is absolutely unique and is particularly powerful for making complex (i.e., with a large number of variables to consider) and high-stakes decisions (i.e., with a high cost of failure), like divorce. With over 2 decades in the field of personal development, and a Master of Science in Psychology from Yale University, Mike is a world-renowned coach and Personal Development Expert (I helped more than 110,000 people from 157 countries dramatically achieve goals they thought were unattainable). After a particularly painful turning point in my life, I developed The Decoding Grid™. Since 2021, he's been on a new Life Mission to share it with the world. Author of the groundbreaking book Divorce Decision Decoded: The Revolutionary Process for Women to Make the Right Decision with Confidence, Mike shares with us his insights on Making Tough Life Decisions, Finding Clarity, & The Impact of Divorce in today's interview.

SHOW NOTES: 

• Website: https://www.getabsoluteclarity.com

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Transcript

Mike Fink | Making Tough Life Decisions, Finding Clarity, & The Impact of Divorce

Epic Voice Guy: The remarkable people podcast. Check it out.

The remarkable people podcast. Listen, do repeat for life.

The remarkable people podcast.

David Pasqualone: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome today's episode with our remarkable friend, Mike Fink. Mike, how are you today, brother? 

Mike Fink: I'm doing awesome. Thank you so much, David. 

David Pasqualone: It is great to have you here today. And I always think about when we're on this show, we can't really see who's with us. And we have listeners from over a hundred countries weekly join us.

And they're just salt of the earth, wonderful people, whether we had a hundred people in a room or [00:01:00] whether we had a hundred thousand people in a room today, you and I are going to get to share your life story. We're going to get to share the wisdom, the tips and the insights. And That you've been able to learn that changed your life.

And by us listening to it and applying it in practical steps. Our listeners all over the world and even myself will be able to too. So my first question to you, putting you on the spot in front of, you know, all these people, is if our listeners stick with you for your entire episode, what's at least one thing that you guarantee they're going to walk away from today that's going to benefit their life if they apply?

Mike Fink: They're going to understand how to make tough, life changing decisions in a way they have never considered before. 

David Pasqualone: Nice. And what about identifying the parts they need? Do you cover that as well? 

Mike Fink: Oh, yes. I'll share probably more than people want to hear because I'm so passionate about what I have discovered.

And, you know, there's a saying that your wounds are your gifts, which is really the basis of your show, right? You [00:02:00] take people who have gone through personal challenges, who have overcome them. And it's because we have gone through those challenges and painful things through our lives that then we have something to share with others.

And, you know, Since I've discovered this new decision making process that obviously we'll talk about extensively, this has been my life mission and, uh, yeah, I'm super happy and stoked to be here because this is part of, uh, spreading the good world and transforming people's lives. 

David Pasqualone: Amen. So ladies and gentlemen, you're going to hear Mike story.

We don't give a bio at the beginning because the show is his bio and you're going to hear about identifying the decisions you need to make in your life. And I need to make it mine. And then how to do it to make radical change and have a better world for you and your family and the generations to come.

So Mike, you obviously have become an expert in this field. But tell us, how did you get there? We go through your past, not because we want to dwell on it, but because everything that happened, good, bad, pretty, pretty ugly, it all made us the men and women we are today. So [00:03:00] where did your life begin? What was your background life?

And we'll just walk through to today. 

Mike Fink: So David, since you like kind of the whole entire story, I'll start far back, but then I'll get fast to the moment that really was pivotal for me. So, I grew up in a family where I was raised mostly by my mom and grandmother. I would see my father only on vacations. I did not grow up with him.

And he was a very successful businessman. And when the time came for me to make a decision on what to study, you know, I was absolutely passionate about psychology, but he was like, no, no, no. This is my way or the highway business. You have to go to do something serious business, forget about psychology. So I ended up doing business.

And then when time came to graduate, I, uh, decided to find a job where I would be valued for my own merits, not because I was a son of the boss or so and so. And I went in, I went into investment banking and then management consulting, which was fine because I was doing great, but I was working crazy [00:04:00] hours.

I mean, all this story is about. You know, 80 to a hundred hours, 80 hours a week was like a light week. It was like almost vacation time. Uh, but then the, the, the ground kind of fell onto me because my father, who was 70 years, uh, 78 years old, remarried a 22 year old woman. And you can imagine why 22 year old woman would marry a 78 year old rich man.

I will leave it up to you. But then he gave me a phone call and he said, Mike, you know what? I have a new wife. I have a new life. From now on, you take care of your mom and grandmother. Uh, financially, and I've changed my phone numbers, don't ever call me again. And as you can imagine, this was one of the most difficult times in my life.

But at the same time, it turned out to be one of the best things that ever happened to me because it put me on a new path. For a couple of years, I tried to mend my relationship with my father. I couldn't understand why things had gone awry and, and In the end, I realized that, you know, he's never going to change.

[00:05:00] He's never turned out to be a good father. So I decided to change careers and go study for psychology in United States, which is what I did. So the first part of my career, after I graduated, I went into personal development, into NLP, into hypnosis, into coaching. And for about 20 years, this is what I had been doing.

So. You know down ups and then about halfway through after a decade This is where the fateful story that led me to where we are today happened I met a gentleman and we decided to become business partners 50 50 and at the time I was like, you know We seem to have a lot of things in common And he seems to be a good person and yet I had those annoying feelings that I felt in my gut, but I couldn't quite explain them or rationalize them.

So I shoved them on the rug and then we, we, we made that partnership. It was 50, 50, the first five years were great, but then the market started changing and we needed to make some tough [00:06:00] decisions, and this is when we started seeing that. We actually had different values that we had a different vision on how we wanted to help our customers in terms of where we wanted to take the business.

And things started degrading pretty fast and pretty bad to the point that we're screaming at each other in front of our top level employees, which I felt ashamed about after that, my voice was hoarse because of all the screaming. But at the same time, I wasn't sure, you know, is it me? Is it him? Is he right?

Am I wrong? Well, even if I'm right, we know in. Should I stay in this relationship? Should I break it? What happens if I break it? I have to buy him out and I have to start from scratch. I had all those questions in my mind, all this uncertainty, I was stuck in indecision. And I will tell you, David, that if I had not gone through that myself, I would not understand that indecision can have a huge toll on your life.

It affects your mental ability to focus, [00:07:00] your feelings, your emotions, your sleep level or your energy level, the way you sleep, your ability to interact with others socially, your work, your self esteem, your exercise habits, your health habits, your mental and physical health and your relationship with others.

And it went to the point that I actually burned out. I had to take a total of six months off, you know, over those five years. It got worse and worse because I was trapped in a relationship where I was deeply unhappy, but the real problem that I was facing was not an unhappy relationship, even though it was a business relationship.

It was not knowing what to do about it. That was the real problem that I was facing. And it became so bad that, you know, we decided to make more compromises and I had to compromise again on my values even more. But then I hit a point where it was my 50th birthday and I decided to make a life review. And when I looked at my life, I realized that Of course, like many people, I [00:08:00] had made a lot of mistakes, but in general, the big decisions, like the ones to change careers, to go study psychology, or the ones to come live in Canada, I got them right.

And I realized that I got them right because I had applied a specific structured process that had developed over my personal development career. And for some reason, I did not apply that process to the decision of getting a business with this gentleman. But when I did, all of a sudden, I went from anxiety, confusion, burnout, to being completely aligned with my head, with my heart, with my gut.

I knew exactly what I needed to do, why I wanted to do it. And even though I had to face the difficulties of the logistics, of the pain of, you know, having to sell a personal asset, of being financially depleted to buy him out and to have to start from scratch. I I was just a different person. And even people around me were telling me, Mike, what happened?

You look so zen. You look so different. [00:09:00] I had inner peace. And when I had that, I realized, you know what? Not only I was able to solve my own personal situation, but I realized that I had overcome a major problem that a lot of people were facing, which was the problem of indecision, in a novel way. Now, there was one more step that pushed me to where I am today, but does it make sense so far, David?

David Pasqualone: Yeah, absolutely. When you're talking about this, I'm writing down question after question because there's so many steps that you had to take in between. But no, keep going and we'll finish this section and then we'll go back and break it down for the list. 

Mike Fink: Perfect. Perfect. So after I kind of resolve my own indecision, I thought to myself, okay, I think I am onto something here.

Let me try to help some other people with this. And it so happened that my spouse's brother was a medical student. He had been studying for like, I don't know, 16 years, you know, those crazy long studies of specialty and so on. And for the previous two years, he had been. mulling over what to do next. He had to [00:10:00] make some very important decisions and he was at a loss.

He didn't know what to do and he had kept trying to come to a decision. He created excel spreadsheets with the pros and cons. He was reading articles but the bottom line was that he was completely confused. He had nausea when he was thinking about what to do. He couldn't sleep and he had gotten worse and worse over the previous two years.

And I told my spouse, you know what, I think I can help him. And this is a kind of very, you know, scientifically minded medical guy. And he thinks that psychology is not a hard science, but I said, you know what, what do you have to lose? So we did a session and I took him in two hours from this place where he was absolutely confused to get absolute clarity and certainty about his next steps.

And he told me, Mike, you know, this is incredible. He feels like I had been stuck in a pitch dark room for two years where I was bumping against furniture and hurting myself. And all of a sudden it turned the light switch on and I could see and now I could just [00:11:00] navigate easily and I know where to go, what to do and why I want to do it.

And that was really the, the, the, the, the I have put my finger on something different or something revolutionary. I need to share it with the world. So then came next. Okay. What is the best impact or the best way to start sharing this process in terms of decision making? Because. We make decisions every day in our life, but there are a number of decisions in our lives that affect us in a very disproportionate manner.

The ones I call the tough, life changing decisions. And when I thought about that, the one that came to my mind was, well, what about divorce? Because in a way, even though it had been a business relationship that had been stuck in and suffering in indecision, It was still very close to the Indecision pains that men or women stuck considering divorce face, you know, is it me?

Is it the relationship? What about if I pull the trigger? Is that the right decision? What happens even if i'm right, you know, I will have to start from scratch And divorce [00:12:00] is really one of the most difficult decisions a human being can make for the following four reasons Number one it affects you on several fronts emotionally psychologically, professionally, personally, socially.

It affects you and others around you, yourself, your kids, your spouse, your family, your friends. It affects you for years to come, maybe even for the rest of your life. And also once you make it, it's kind of a irreversible decision. You don't have the benefit of trial and error. You cannot divorce 20 times and say, oh, this way I'll make sure that I get the 21st time right.

And in addition to all this, usually, even if it's the right decision, it gets worse before it gets better. The analogy that I use is the one of bathroom. You know, if you have an ugly bathroom and you think you could get better. Well, the first thing you need to do. is to tear it down. There will be a lot of dust, a lot of debris, right?

But after a while, [00:13:00] it will get better. Having said that, it gets worse before it gets better. So, divorcing is one of the toughest decisions because it's very complex. You have a lot of variables to consider. And it's such high stakes that the cost of failure is huge. And this is one of the reasons why people are stuck in indecision.

So I decided to help people who are considering divorce and who didn't know what to do. And this is what I've been doing since 2021. And in the end, the natural thing was that more women were reaching out to me than men. And I believe this is for two reasons. The number one is that in the United States, 69 percent of divorces are initiated by women.

And number two, I believe that women are more open to seeking help for this kind of issues. The reality though, is that the decision making process that I've discovered and that I will be sharing with you is something that can be applied to all kinds of decisions, whether it's to quit your job or not, whether it's to get in [00:14:00] business with somebody else, whether it's to buy a house or not.

I mean, Any kind of decision that has a level of complexity and where their cost of failure is high. Does that make sense, Dave? 

David Pasqualone: Yes, absolutely. 

Mike Fink: So this is where I'm at. Now I'm specializing in helping women considering divorce and who are stuck in indecision and who are afraid of making a mistake they will regret in order for them to get clarity and certainty in 30 days.

So that they can move towards the happier life they deserve. And this is what my life mission is about. And this is what I'm here to share today. 

David Pasqualone: So going back into your life, there's so many things that happened. Um, you know, having a father that's absent from the home, it doesn't matter what country you're from.

It's proven that that's greatly impacting on a child's life, especially a young man. Then you had, Well, you're trying to rebuild the relationship. Your father completely rejected. You literally said, we're done. Don't talk to me again. [00:15:00] I mean, that's horrible. So what were some of the things that you did? Or you advise people to do to overcome that kind of rejection so you can acknowledge it's not me, he's clearly has issues, you can self reflect you can see is there anything that we can make ourselves better, but for a child whose parent abandons them, it's not their fault.

So how do you recommend to our audience you, how did you reconcile that in your life or are you still struggling with it. 

Mike Fink: No, thankfully, I'm not struggling with it anymore. It took me a long time, you know, to overcome that fear of abandonment that need to be perfect in order for me to feel that I would need, that I could be loved and so on.

But I'm going to share more of a philosophical point of view because I believe from a spiritual point of view that we are spiritual beings having human experiences. To learn lessons in life, right? And some of those lessons are about loving others, [00:16:00] but loving yourself as well. Uh, learning to forgive, learning to, um, create the reality that you want to create.

And this is one. conclusion I have come to is that the way life works is it presents you with the same challenge over and over again until you learn the lesson behind it. You know, lessons are repeated until learned. And, but it does that in a very particular way. So I'm going to share a story. Um, I don't know if it's true or not, but it certainly illustrates the point.

And the story is about this woman who was. absolutely passionate about violin and she would play violin since she was a child and she wanted to become a professional violinist. And when she turned 18, she went to, or 24, you know, after her violin studies, she went to see this big maestro, violin maestro to audition for him, to get his opinion.

And she goes to see him. She plays her best piece with most passion that she wants. [00:17:00] And then she goes and asks him, so what do you think? Do I have what it takes to become a professional, a great professional violinist? And the master looks at her and says, No, you don't have what it takes and this woman was crushed.

She couldn't believe it. So she goes absolutely devastated home She you know, she cries she's devastated. She doesn't know what to do And eventually she thinks well if that's the way it is, then maybe I should change careers and eventually she changes careers She goes into accounting and she becomes successful in her field and 20 years later She goes to a concert at that maestro And at the end of the concert she manages to get in the lodge of the maestro and she says Maestro, I just listened to your concert.

It was beautiful. And maybe you don't remember, but 20 years ago, when I was deciding whether to go into becoming a professional violinist, uh, I came to you and I asked you if I had what it takes. And you told me that I didn't. And, and, [00:18:00] you know, then I've become an accountant, but I've always wondered, how did you know that I didn't have what it takes?

And the maestro answers, because If you did have what it takes to be a professional violinist, you have not listened to me. You have kept playing the violin. And this story to me illustrates exactly how life works. It may sound cruel, but at the end of the day, I do believe that when we are facing rejection, when we are facing people who abandon us, who tell us we're not good enough or whatever it is, It is a way for life to spur us to say, you know what?

You're wrong. I am lovable. You know what? You're wrong. I have worth. You know what? You're wrong. I have value to offer. And this may sound like a twisted way of life to function, but that has been my life experience and the lesson that I've learned. So this is one lesson since you asked me that I think is valuable for other people to at least consider.

You may or may not agree with my. But let's consider that if you're being faced with the same [00:19:00] challenge over and over again, it may be a way for life to try to get you to react and to really affirm the lesson that you have to learn. Does that make sense? 

David Pasqualone: Yeah. And so, man, that's so complicated and life is complicated and simple simultaneously, right?

So you have people who have learned behavior. And even if they are abused, they get used to the abuse, so they feel comfort in the abuse, and they're drawn to the abuse. You have other people who are, um, they have been told lies, so they believe the lies, and they're conditioned for the lies, so they go along with the lies.

So our minds can be You know, manipulated in so many ways, but what you're saying is having the same circumstance repeat itself over and over again, despite the cause, there's a lesson that we need to learn and correct. How [00:20:00] do you recommend the steps one, two, three, reverse engineering, breaking down, finding that lesson?

Because there's people listening who are 25. There's people listening who are 65, and they've had the same things happen to them over and over again. How do they break that cycle? 

Mike Fink: Well, I mean, this is my personal experience, and I'm sharing my personal experience as a human being, which is, you know, not the expertise that I developed in decision making, but what I can say, though, is The first step of change is awareness.

I'm not the one who came up with this quote, but I think it's a really, really good one. So first of all is identify the thing that keeps being repeated over and over again in your life. You know, that will give you an indication of, okay, this is the problem that's being presented to me over and over again.

What could be some potential lessons? And in my personal life, it was I felt abandoned and I felt there was not good enough and I always felt rejected, uh, over and over again. So then I realized, you know what? [00:21:00] It's crazy. That doesn't make any sense. And I remember one day I had an experience where, for something so small and insignificant, I just told to myself, you are so worthless, Mike, you know, how could you make this mistake?

But it was such a disproportionate reaction to what had happened to me, that it struck me like, it can't be true. This is, you know, this is not a real thought. This is just a hallucination I'm having from my past. And if you remember the movie, A Beautiful Mind, at some point, um, there's John Nash, who, um, Was having, uh, hallucinations, right?

Because he was suffering from schizophrenia. And at the end, at the very end of the movie, hopefully one will be a spoiler and people will still watch the movie. Then if they haven't seen it. 

David Pasqualone: Yeah, it's a great movie. Russell Crowe did an amazing job. 

Mike Fink: He was amazing. Didn't he win the Oscar or something along those lines, or the best Oscar or something like that?

I mean, Phenomenal movie. 

David Pasqualone: Yeah. And just for our listeners who don't know, it was a true, it was based on a true story. Russell Crowe acted in, I believe it was around, it was released in like [00:22:00] 2000, but the story is much older, but the man was an absolute genius simultaneously struggling with schizophrenia that was getting ongoingly worse.

Is that how you'd summarize it, Mike? 

Mike Fink: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, the man was a genius and, uh, in spite of those hallucinations, so he goes through a personal journey, that journey that the movie illustrates very well. At the end of the movie, a journalist comes and says, so now, you know, do you still have those hallucinations?

And it's funny because you see uh, John Nash looking and he sees the characters that he's hallucinating. He says, yes, I do, but now I know they're not real. And to me, that moment was very similar to that. He's like, I, that thought that I was not worth anything, that it was worthless came up, but I realized, you know, Even though it's there, it's a hallucination.

So I would say, first of all, identify the patterns that come up over and over again, and then ask yourself, okay, what would be the opposite of that I need to demonstrate? If the story [00:23:00] of the violinist, if he says, you're not worth it, you don't have what it takes, then what is the opposite of that? Well, it is, it is that I have what it takes.

And let me prove that. 

Does that answer your question, Dave? 

David Pasqualone: Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's such a. Everybody's circumstance is different. Correct. So

people who have been told their whole life, something, and then they keep being told the same lie by multiple people, you know,

they're sitting there thinking to themselves, how does this keep happening? Like, that's not my heart. That's not who I am. How do I keep being accused of this? Or people keep calling me this when that's the polar opposite of who I am. So in that kind of situation, it's hard when. You know the truth, but everybody's telling you the opposite.

So what's kind of the process to bring [00:24:00] yourself from the lies saying is trying to attack you with to the truth of God, like not making stuff up. Like, I'm not saying, you know, what is that? Do you ever see that movie, little kid movie Jonah and there's the little worm and he's reading the self help manuals and he's like, I am a skilled metal worker.

I am a skilled man. You know, he's not a skilled metal worker. You just can't say it and it happens, right? But at the same time, if you are a successful entrepreneur, you are a great violinist. You are an amazing carpenter. That is the truth. But people would beat you down your whole life. How do you start making that switch?

Where you push away the lies and embrace truth. 

Mike Fink: So I'll give you again I mean, it's funny because you're taking me out of an area which is not necessarily my area of expertise But i'm happy to talk about it because yeah, 

David Pasqualone: I don't want to only talk about what you want to talk about But that's why 

Mike Fink: because you know, then I have plenty of stuff to share about the decision making process But i'll give you one more thing about this because I think this would be valuable [00:25:00] The reality is that maybe you are being told lies at the beginning, whether by your father, by people who raise you and so on, but then because we internalize those things, we don't need other people to tell us anything.

Then what we do is we tell ourselves those things. Perception is projection, and I'm gonna share a story with you. Alan Cohen, who's a great author, uh, a great author, shares the story where he was leading a retreat, and he had different participants, and it was a retreat in a countryside, and there was Pete the duck, who was out there in the morning.

So, in the morning, the participants would come out of their, um, rooms, and they would see Pete the duck on their way to go to the retreat. Uh, to the workshop. And the first is this woman who was a singer. And Pete the Duck goes, Quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack. And the woman who was a singer said, Ah, Pete, you always sing so many beautiful songs.

That's so lovely. Keep singing. And then five minutes later comes this woman who was overweight and [00:26:00] she hears Uh, Pete the dog goes quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack. And she goes, Pete, you're always asking for food, always asking for food. Stop asking for food. And then five minutes later, there's this man who comes who was a philosopher and Pete the dog goes quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack.

And the philosopher says, questions, oh, you always ask all these questions, Pete. And the reality was that it was the same exact, um, stimulus in the environment, but every single person interpreted according to their own beliefs, values, and experiences, right? So I, after my father abandoned me, I didn't need other people to abandon me or to tell me that it was not worth it because I was doing the job myself.

I was projecting every single interaction that I had. That was the length through which I was interpreting life. But thankfully, I was able to overcome it. And also, I did a lot of personal work with NLP, um, hypnosis, and I was able to overcome that. But the first step of awareness, sorry, the first step of change is awareness.

So, that's what I can show on that [00:27:00] front before we move on to the next one. Does 

that give you an additional angle, David? 

David Pasqualone: Yeah, absolutely. I just want it. We have such a broad audience and so many people with different issues, but the same core foundation. That's why I'm not trying to get you out of your area of expertise, but I definitely want you came.

It's hard to get past a rejection of any sort. And in my life, you know, I've watched and observed people around me. I've experienced things myself and I would definitely say a divorce, having a spouse that you guys made a vow to God, a vow to each other. You were, you know, in it for life. And that betrayal I think is emotionally, it's definitely the hardest thing I've ever had to face.

And then after that, you have like parents who reject you. And that's super difficult and it's just like there's different levels because when you're [00:28:00] born to your mother or father, you're not making that choice. God had a plan and a reason for it. It's perfect. So I'm not questioning God, but you ask the question, like, why is this happening?

So we can learn. But when you choose a spouse, it's a conscious decision you made and you're putting your trust in them and to a whole new level. So that's why I was asking you When you're talking to our listeners, what were the things that helped you realize I have worth because a father abandoning a son or a daughter that makes the kid feel like worthless, whether they consciously think it or not.

So it's like, how did you overcome that? How did you reprogram your mind with truth, and you're, you're explaining it now and we'll get to making those decision making process, which you are the expert in because. We get paralyzed when we're not confident. And like you said, you wore yourself, you said it took six months exhaustion.

Mike Fink: Yeah, I took six months off because I was burned out. So out of five years [00:29:00] of, of constant anxiety and turmoil, it got to me physically. I remember one day I was so bad, I had to take a nap. And when I woke up. For 30 seconds. That's a long time, David. For 30 seconds, I didn't know who I was and where I was. I had no sense of identity.

I mean, that tells you how burned out I was. 

David Pasqualone: Yeah. And I will just say one more thing. Yeah, there's a lot of people. There's a lot of people like that. And financially, they go on every day, like a day. Like a hurt zombie because they can't stop working. You know what I mean? They're, they're a single mom or they're a dad taking care of the family and they can't stop working.

And you might not be able, you might've lost everything because of it. I don't know how much you want to share, but when you take six months off, if you're not in a financial position to do so, some people push through based on necessity and they're just dying more every day. 

Mike Fink: Absolutely. So I will say one more thing, which also is a bridge into the decision making, which is the most important thing is understanding what you [00:30:00] your values are and being aligned with them.

This is a conversation actually had. Several times that yesterday actually, as a matter of fact, with my spouse, we're talking about it. And she said, you have to talk more about this. So there we go. You know, there are no, uh, no, no accidents. I really believe, and again, I'm not the one who came up with this definition, but I really believe that success is living life according to your own values and achieving the goals that you have set for yourself.

Because society conditions us, our parents conditions us, um, they try. Maybe with good intentions to impose their value on us. And one of the reasons, for example, why financial success is equated, at least in the, uh, Western societies with success is that it's a simple thing to measure. You can easily measure.

how much money you're making every year or how much money you have in your bank account. But the reality is that there are so many other things that are more important [00:31:00] that cannot be measured. I mean, even Warren Buffett, who's one of the richest men in the world says that the true measure of success when you die is not how much money you made is how many people loved you.

I think this is, you know, again, you may share it, you may not share it, but it definitely expands your perception. So I would say that one of the most important things is understanding what is important to you and being aligned with those values. 

David Pasqualone: Nice. Yeah. I mean, if you're not aligned with your values, you're going to be in constant conflict, which is not good.

So, so now where do you go? Mike, you have a business that is constantly conflict, constant conflict, ag arguing, yelling. You said your voice was hoarse. And then you mentioned you're married now. But we didn't talk about where, when, or where that phone, the timeline, but between there and today, take us through the process and how you, you're helping your brother in law, you're helping people with this [00:32:00] process.

You're seeing it works with women and men, but you said you were focused on women choosing divorce. Um, where did your life go from there? And then also I do have another question because society sets expectations. Like you were saying, you need to know what your values are, what you want out of life. Not just being told what someone else is telling you, you should want, right?

But 69 percent plus. women are initiating divorces today. I would absolutely agree with that. And that lines up with adultery rates that out of in marriages today, seven, depending on what still you look at out of 10 marriages where the spouse committed adultery, seven to eight of those are the women. So it's lining up with your 69 percent statistic, right?

Um, what's going on that you're seeing in our culture that women. Are making these decisions to break their vow to God and their husbands, or they're so like, is the man just, I'm going to stick, cause I'm going to stick. Even if [00:33:00] I'm not happy, is the woman being just programmed today to accept like lies and they never have enough.

What are you seeing if you're working with primarily women looking for change? Cause do you ever just tell them like the decision you make is to stay with your husband and kids. The decision you need to make is to be accepting of yourself and to be happy with the life you have. 

Mike Fink: Actually, that's not what I tell them for several reasons because I don't have a bias one way or another that you made a commitment you should stay that I work with clients who have had affairs for years and i'm completely judgment free because My personal belief that we always make the best possible judgment that we can at the moment We make them and there's also and again, this is a totally personal belief that I do believe in a higher truth, which is Yes, people make a vow, they made a commitment, at the same time, if the situation, for one reason or another, makes it so that they will be so tremendously unhappy, at the end of the day, even if you look at it from a spiritual [00:34:00] point of view, I believe that it is the concept of the highest good, and I believe that people can Be in a better position when they're aligned with their value and whether happier, whether they're unhappy, because if you are deeply unhappy in a relationship, and of course my recommendation is make sure that you do everything that you can to save your marriage.

And make sure that you know what to focus on and the process that I have developed Helps in that and identify with absolute certainty Whether a marriage can be saved or not and what leverage points to focus on And at the same time if you realize that it cannot be saved then You know a lot of people who stay in a in a relationship where they're unhappy The people worry about well, what happened for example to the well being of my kids But the reality is it's the same question you should ask yourself is You What will happen to the well being of my kids if I stay in a relationship where I'm unhappy and I give them a legacy of dysfunction because they do not have a proper role model about what a [00:35:00] healthy, loving relationship should look like.

And then they're going to go and repeat that intergenerational dysfunction of being in unhappy relationships. I remember this woman. She had been married and since the beginning, um, you know, she had been married for 10 years and she told me that since the very beginning, she wasn't sure that he was the right person.

But all she knew was her parents were unhappy with one another who kept arguing. So for her, that was the norm. It was normal that a relationship should be like that. And that's what she got on. But then she realized that one day her kids came to her and said, mommy, mommy, you know, it's strange, but you seem happier when dad is not around.

And she realized, wow, what kind of example am I setting up for my own kids? So in my experience, it's not about trying to make it work at all costs. It's about understanding whether you can save it and then understand that if it's not salvageable, then probably the higher good for both the kids, the husband, and so [00:36:00] on is to be aligned with your values so that everybody else can be aligned with their values.

So does my answer make sense to you, david?

David Pasqualone: Yeah, I think there's just a lot to consider because there's so many exceptions and there's so many rules and there's so many details. Like for instance, your father left you and just said, forget it. That was just pure selfishness. There was nothing you did or no reason he should have done that.

That wasn't healthy for you or his grandkids or future generations. That was him making a very bad decision because of selfishness. So, I mean, it's, I don't know if I'd agree with a blanket statement, but I don't think you're making a blanket statement. You said you should be fighting for your marriage.

You should be trying to make it work. Um, but again, if two people aren't dedicated to that marriage. You can't, you can't make it work and it will eventually put more harm to the children. So I, I see the balance. It's just, I want to make sure our listeners, they're just not like, I'm not happy. So I'm quitting because happiness is a [00:37:00] state of mind.

You know, it's, you can be happy in your worst situation possible, or you can be miserable with everything in the world. I mean, how many billionaires commit suicide and they have everything the world could offer. Right? So that's, 

Mike Fink: Yeah, it's true that happiness is state of mind. At the same time, there are some things that contribute to make you happier and some other things contribute to make you, uh, unhappier.

The reality is that when women come to a point of considering divorce, it's because they usually have tried or again, the stakes of, you know, breaking up the family are really high. None of the clients that I've worked with, the women that I've worked with, Take this lightly. And this is why they've been stuck in indecision for years, sometimes for decades because they're not sure they still have hope that things would work out.

They're very aware of the consequences, potential negative consequences if they get it wrong on themselves, on their kids, on other people that they have made a vow and so on. So this is not a decision that they take lightly. It's just that, as you said, sometimes they have tried to save the marriage, but [00:38:00] if their spouse is not on board, it takes two to tango, right?

Um, so every single situation is. It is different from one from from the other ones, and that's why the most important thing is understanding what is important to you as a person. If you are in a relationship, that's not working so that you can really determine whether there is leeway for you to save this relationship, and if so, what to focus on.

And if not, you know why you're better off moving on. And by the way, A lot of times when those women make the decision with the clarity that I help them get and certainty, it helps them not only get the certainty that they need, but also explain it in a way to their spouse or to their kids or to other people that makes sense where they feel at peace with their decision.

And it's not about blaming, you know, I tell them what you see here through the process I've gone through, it's not a judgment on your spouse that he's a bad person. His judge is just an assessment of it's not a [00:39:00] bad, it's not a good fit. And the analogy that I use is imagine if you buy a beautiful pair of shoes, but the shoes are half a size too small.

Well, if you wear them, It's going to be painful, but it doesn't mean, Oh, bad pair of shoe. And it doesn't mean, Oh, you're a bad foot. No, it has nothing to do with that. It's not a judgment on the shoe or the foot. It's just the fact that it's not a proper fit. Does that make sense? 

David Pasqualone: Yes. I mean, there's so many complicated, so many details to that, that like I kept thinking, like, that's why when you date, you don't have sex before you're married, you get to know the person you, Um, really make sure you're making a good decision.

There's like what I was basically hearing you say is like all this stuff society. I don't care what culture you're from. You should be dealing with all this before we get married. Make sure your values are the same. Make sure you have things ideally. Yes. Yeah. Make sure that shoe does fit. Because the most beautiful woman or a handsome man in the world, if [00:40:00] you close your eyes and you go blind or they were burned in a fire, are you still going to love them when you wake up the next day?

And that's true love and what you need to be there for. So yeah, there's just so many complications and I don't want to distract. Let's talk about the decision making process. This is your area of expertise. This is how you help people. I'm constantly exhausting myself thinking about, you know, different options.

Do you ever see the Avengers movie where Dr. Strange is sitting there and he goes, and he's like, I just went through 14 million 287 different calculations and only one works. But like, I feel like that sometimes my mind just spins and I'm a problem solver and I might agonize over a decision for three weeks.

And then once I make it, I feel better, but it's like, why don't I just make it three weeks ago? I just didn't have the confidence or whatever. So let's talk about how do we fix this? Mike, 

Mike Fink: that's great. So I'm glad you brought this up that you also have decisions in which you agonize because [00:41:00] I'm willing to bet that those decisions on which you agonize, I'm most likely continue decisions that are complex, meaning you have a large number of variables to consider.

And if you get it wrong, well, there are consequences. So that's why you hesitate. So what I'm going to share now is a framework that I use to help Women get clarity and certainty on whether they should divorce or not But it can be applied as I said at the beginning to whether you should quit your job or not Whether you should start a business whether you should hire a person buy a house decide to move to a different country and so on But what i'm going to say is that for decisions that have a very high cost of failure Most people are actually stuck to an indecision and are bound to stay stuck in a status quo unless they really communicate, unless they communicate with a real gatekeeper of their decision.

So I'm going to show you a brain mock up here, uh, brain. Do you see this brain? And if you're listening, I'm going to describe it because I know that a lot of people are actually listening to this. Because the reality is that we don't have one brain, [00:42:00] we have three brains. So And for your listeners, you can think about the brain as a scoop, an ice cream cone that has three layers of ice cream, one on top of the other.

And the first layer of ice cream, the one that you see here on the, at the bottom of the brain, it's called the old brain, the primal brain, the reptilian brain. Have you heard those terms before? Do they ring a bell? Maybe? I have not, not personally. No. So it's 

interesting. 

Okay, that's great. So this part of the brain is the part of the brain that was formed 500 million years ago when there were dinosaurs around.

It's not sophisticated, but it has one very important function. It is in charge of keeping you safe. It is in charge of your survival. Okay. And we're going to get back to it in a second moment. Then we have a second layer that came up about 200 million years ago. So a second, uh, scoop of ice cream, if you want.

That's the emotional brain, which is in charge of emotions. And the last layer of ice cream, the one on the very top, it's the [00:43:00] rational brain. This one came about two to three million years ago. It's very recent compared to the other ones. It's the rational brain. It's the part of our brain that is in charge of logic, of emotions, and of language.

Now, there's a reason why I'm sharing all these facts with you, because the reality is that this part of your brain is in charge of your survival. And it says, you know what? And I'm going to talk about divorce now, because as we saw, the cost of failure is huge. It's like, unless you are absolutely sure that divorce is a decision where you'll be better off than staying in a relationship, you know, I'm going to keep you stuck in the status quo.

Because when in doubt, wait it out. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't. Because we are wired, from a biological point of view, first and foremost for survival. We are wired. Happiness is optional. So this part of the brain says, you know what? That's it. Give me absolute proof or otherwise I'm going to keep you [00:44:00] stuck.

Have you heard about the fight or flight response? Does that ring a bell to you? Yes. Yep. Okay. The reality is that the fight or flight response is managed by this part of the brain, but there's a third response that's called the freeze response. And this is exactly what happens when people are facing a decision that could have very, very, consequences they freeze in place.

Now you mentioned yourself, sometimes it takes you three weeks to make a decision, but in the case of a divorce, the consequences are so high that I've worked with clients. Most of my clients have been stuck for years, but sometimes even decades. I had a woman who had been stuck wondering for 32 years.

Why? Because biology. Is stacked against us. It wants absolute certainty. Does it make sense so far? 

David Pasqualone: Yes. I mean, we have a different kind of worldview and thought process on this, but. I'm trying to find the commonality and it's making sense where you're saying that by nature, we, [00:45:00] most people fight or flight or freeze and that's just core built in us.

That's, that's what you're saying. Yeah. So now we get stuck in a pattern. So yes, go ahead. 

Mike Fink: Okay. So what is the remedy? 

What is the antidote to being stuck in the status quo? Well, the antidote of to uncertainty is certainty. But you need to get certainty on two levels. First, logical certainty. And then once you have that logical certainty, you need to be able to communicate that logical certainty to the part of the brain, that is the real gatekeeper of your decision.

So let me share with you how we get to logical certainty. And the first thing is, You need to do so. I have developed this three step process. That's that I called the decoding grid because it really acts like a an answer key that enables you to assess your relationship. And I talk about in the book that I wrote, but it has a three step process.

The first one is value mapping. And let me ask you this, David. Imagine that you are. [00:46:00] In the market to buy a used car. What are you looking for in a, in a used car? 

David Pasqualone: I mean, reliable vehicle, you want to get it for a great price. And sometimes you want to look for features and benefits that you need. Like not everybody needs a pickup truck.

Mike Fink: So what is important 

to you? Tell me what are those specific features and benefits that you're looking 

for in a car? 

David Pasqualone: Oh right now? So right now I'd be looking for a reliable truck that I can throw tools in the back and use it to haul and pull a cargo trailer and I want to make sure I get a great deal on it.

Mike Fink: Okay, great. So you see it because you have clarity on the things that are important to you So you want a truck you want to have a cargo space in order to put things in the back But you don't really care about fuel efficiency, for example, because a truck by definition is not fuel efficient, right? Yeah, you know it's 

within a reasonable range.

You're good, 

right, but it's not like the priors that's going to save Uh on gas [00:47:00] and i'm not even talking about all the war. I'm just talking about just You know money and economy, but the reason i'm bringing this up is that Imagine if you didn't have clarity on what's important to you in a car and you went to the car dealer And a car dealer shows your car.

How would you know whether it's a good option for you or not? If you didn't know what you were looking for 

Yeah, you 

probably you wouldn't correct. Yeah, correct now. It sounds weird that i'm talking about cars But you have to understand that all decisions that we make are value driven decisions. I mean you have strong values That's how you choose to live your life But it is the same thing whether we choose to uh buy a car or even if we go to a restaurant Whenever people go to a restaurant the example that I use is they look for something that tastes good, that is reason, that is healthy, and that is reasonably priced.

And if you have something on the menu that fulfills all three things, then it's a go, go, go. If nothing on the menu fulfills any of those things, it's a no, no, no. The problem [00:48:00] arises when some of the things are being fulfilled, but not others. Like, wow, the burger is good. Ah, yeah, but it's not healthy. Or, um, the pizza is reasonably priced.

Yeah, but it doesn't taste great. Or the salmon is really healthy. Yeah, but it's, it's overpriced. And that's when you're facing those pros and cons that you're stuck unless you understand what value is more important than the other value. Does that make sense so far? 

David Pasqualone: Yeah. Prioritizing the values and your needs like I may pay more, but I'm going to get a more powerful truck to tow the trailer.

I need for example. Yes. 

Mike Fink: Now, in order for you to make the proper decision for buying a truck, ordering a meal or really understanding how to really assess your relationship. You need to understand the values, the things that are important to you. So what is your best guess? Uh, David, when you, when people think about their relationship or their ideal spouse or an ideal relationship, how many values do you think they have on average?

How many things do you think people have that are important to them in a relationship? [00:49:00] 

David Pasqualone: Okay, hold on one second here. Let me make sure I clarify what you're asking me. How many things the average person looks for or how many things they should be looking for? 

Mike Fink: Good question. I would say how many things quote unquote they should be making looking for but yeah, how many things do you think matter?

In a relationship to an average, 

David Pasqualone: well, I mean, matter in a relationship, that's important to love, trust, respect. And then, you know, there's, I'd say 10 core things. I'd pick a number 10, but most people pick on how do they make me feel? Are they good looking? And you know, what are my friends think? And those are fricking horrible reasons.

Mike Fink: Well, and the reality is that how they made me feel is the result of how many things they fulfill in what's important to me Now you said about 10 in my experience Most people have most people have between 20 to 30 things that are important to them in a [00:50:00] relationship That sounds like a lot to you or to even to your listeners It's a sure sign that they are not considering all the relevant pieces of the puzzle.

And that's the norm. We're not used to have that level of introspection, of really looking inwards and understanding or writing things down. And the analogy that I use is, imagine having a thousand pieces jigsaw puzzle, and you have only 200 pieces. How likely are you going to be to solve the puzzle? Not likely, right?

Okay. So the first step in the process is value mapping, really making the list of all the things that are important to you in your relationship so that you know, what's important to you and you can make an assessment on the things that matter. So that takes us to the second step, which is, and before I actually share the second step with you, I'm going to ask you another question, another thought experiment.

So David, let's 

David Pasqualone: actually, I want to do one thing. So basically for our listeners, people who are out there and they're looking to get. a spouse and [00:51:00] they're, they're, you're saying, number one, start off with a list of all the stuff that's important to you. Value add. Yes. 

Mike Fink: In a relationship, in a relationship.

Yep. And ideally, ideally, not only just write down somebody who's trustworthy or somebody who's affectionate, go and be specific. How would you know that the person is affectionate? I call this the Hollywood movie, Uh, uh, director test, who's doing what with whom? How would I know if you were to tell me my go and find the person who's affectionate?

How would I know that this person is affectionate? So you need to describe it in terms that would enable me to recognize it. So maybe for a person affectionate means, Oh, we hold hands when we walk and he gives me a hug when I come home and, uh, and kisses. Another person to be affectionate. Oh no, it's about words or it's all about calling me honey or sweetheart or anything.

You think so. You need to really become as precise as possible, as scarce as possible into what each value means. Even when we're talking about the example of [00:52:00] the car, when you talk reliable, well, what does reliable mean to you? Is it that you never take it to the mechanic for 300, 000 miles? Or is it that, you know, is it 100, 000 miles?

What does enough storage space mean? Is it that you want to put, uh, is it a certain number of square feet or cubic feet or, and things like that? The more clarity you have in terms of what a value means, the easier it will be for you to understand whether that value is being fulfilled or not. So that's an important addition.

Does that make sense? Yeah, total sense. Perfect. Second step is, and I'm going to ask you by, I'm going to start by asking you a question is, imagine that you are looking for your dream house and you are looking for 20 things that are important to you. And then one day a friend of yours comes and says, David, David, I have found this house and it has 19 things out of 20 that you're looking for.

That's 95%. Is that a good thing or not?

David Pasqualone: You know what? I would say 19 out of 20. That sounds [00:53:00] great. Let's check it out. But then if that one thing was a big deal, it may be worth waiting. 

Mike Fink: That's a really good answer. That's a really good answer. Because what if that one thing missing is location? The house is in a completely different city and state from where you want to live.

That's Everything else becomes a moot point, right? It doesn't matter that it has 19 out of 20, because the most important one is missing. So, that's why I say that values, they do not be, they are not an equal vote to democracy, they are more like a military hierarchy. It's not how many values are being fulfilled, it's which ones are being fulfilled, because not all the values have the same weight.

So based on that, the second step is what I called categorized ranking, meaning really going and creating the list in a way to sort out your values on the most important one to the least important one. And once you do that, it's really making the distinction between what is essential versus optional, because if you don't have that distinction, then you don't know [00:54:00] what you can and what you cannot compromise on.

And this is one of the problems that I see with marriage counseling is that When people go to marriage counseling without having that clarity beforehand, it's almost like putting the horse before the cart because they may end up going to marriage counseling. They may end up working on some things.

Their spouse may end up making efforts and changing some aspects. But if those things are things that are optional and not the real needle movers, now the situation has to become worse because the spouse has made efforts and changes to But you're still not any happier, and now there's even more guilt that is related to potentially divorcing.

Does that make sense? Yes. Okay, so this is important to understand, and let me go back and give you a couple of stories. The first one, in terms of making sure you consider all the pieces of the puzzle, is, I remember having this client, Felicia, and she had been married for eight years, but she had discovered that her husband had committed infidelity more than [00:55:00] once.

And even though he was attending these sex addiction support groups, he was You know, making efforts and so on, she discovered he had been, um, cheating on her, uh, once again, and she was devastated. But on the other hand, he was such a great dad and they had a son together. But she was only going back and forth between, I cannot take his infidelity anymore, but he's such a great dad.

And she was going back and forth between this, you know, bing bong, bing bong, this pros and cons. So that's why you need to have all the pieces of the puzzle. Now, the second step in terms of understanding what is essential versus optional is because I had this other client, her name was Kate, and she had 22 things that were important to her, but, um, 17 were essential to her.

And overall, out of the 22 things that were, uh, important to her in a relationship, Her husband fulfilled 15 out of 22. [00:56:00] And you could say, you know what? That's great. That's 70 percent of the things that she's looking for in a relationship. But when we made the distinction between essential versus optional, it turned out that all the things that were missing were part of her essential values, meaning the things that she really needed for her to be sufficiently happy long term.

And even worse, four out of her top five values were not being fulfilled. And when she saw that, for her, it was a real eye opener, because she realized that, Wow, now I understand why I have been so unhappy. I understand why I couldn't make up my mind, because there are some good things going on for him. At the same time, I could not reasonably expect for him to make changes, enough changes, on seven different fronts, long term, because he would need a personality transplant.

He would not be the same person anymore. And yet, those changes, are necessary, essential for me to be sufficiently happy long term. And that's when she came to the decision that she would be better off moving [00:57:00] forward with the decision to divorce than staying in the relationship. Now, conversely, this was also the opportunity for her to realize that if there had been less values that had not been fulfilled, she would have knowing exactly what values to work on to make the relationship work and to know what to focus on.

Does that make sense? 

David Pasqualone: Yeah, but where's the balance to between when you work with a client, do you ever question maybe their expectations were like, you know, you're watching these movies and you want to, you know, Hallmark Channel man, that's not a real man, those aren't real people. And you're expecting someone who doesn't exist and the people who do act that way.

They're probably going to be like a total like narcissist and behind your back, do horrible things. So where do you find the balance with your clients between setting expectations and setting realistic expectations? 

Mike Fink: So that's a great question. I do believe that the balance has to do with what is essential to you versus optional, because [00:58:00] you could say, well, It's very difficult to find the perfect spouse.

Nobody, you know, will check all the boxes, even though I can tell you it happens more often than you would think once you have that level of clarity. And I explained to you why it can actually then attract the right person into your life in a moment. But that's why knowing this is essential. Those are my non negotiables versus the optional ones is so fundamental.

Because if your spouse is not perfect, well, you know, whether you can quote unquote, expect to be sufficiently happy, long term if the things that are not being fulfilled are optionals. But if your top five are like completely unfulfilled. It's going to be extremely difficult for you to make this relationship work in a way that will be sufficiently fulfilled.

So again, it's not about how many values are being fulfilled or not. It's which ones are they essential? Are they real close to the top five or not? And it's not for me to tell them what they should do or not do. It's always the answer that reveals itself to them. It's about [00:59:00] understanding, okay, those are the things that are missing in your relationship.

And when they see it the way I present it to them, they really understand, okay, those may be some things that I could work on, or those may be things that I cannot work on because I've tried and he was not willing to, or I've tried and he's not capable to. Um, and I, I'll give you this example. Um, I had this woman, so since we have time and this is one thing that I love about your podcast format is that it's an open time conversation, right?

We are not limited. Yes, sir. I'll tell you about this client. Her name was Tracy and She was very upset because her husband was very, uh, messy. And what she wanted was a, a tidy husband. And he would just come home, drop the clothes on the floor. He would promise to wash the dishes, and he would leave the dirty dishes in the sink for three days.

And it would drive her nuts. And she would be like, Ah, I cannot take this anymore. And she would knock him and try him to, and ask him to change, and he would say yes, yes, yes, and so on. [01:00:00] But then she realized when we went through the process that, uh, Out of 23 things that were important to her, having a spouse that was tidy, not only was not essential and it was optional, but it was number 22 out of 23.

And it was like, wow, what a big insight. And she also realized that because as human beings, we're not very good at dealing or not dealing, but we're not very good at understanding our emotions. That one of the things that had happened is she had been unhappy in her relationship for other reasons. But since she was not able to put those other reasons into words, she would focus on the most obvious environmental cues.

And when she would see things on the floor, she would say, ah, obviously that's why I'm upset because he's messy. And I don't want somebody who's messy. But when she had that level of clarity of what was essential versus optional, she realized there were other things that were more important to her that she could work on.

So she completely dropped her expectations on the tidiness. She said, you know what? From now on, I will [01:01:00] always wash the dishes, do the laundry. And we can work on other things and she was able to save the marriage But it took her that level of clarity to understand what was essential versus optional.

Does that make sense? 

David Pasqualone: Yeah, it makes total sense. I've seen so many marriages where There's a hundred great things And people get obsessed about one or two things that really don't matter in the big picture. They make themselves miserable. They absolutely make men and women, they make themselves miserable complaining about the other spouse when it's not anything that really matters in eternity.

It doesn't matter with God. It doesn't matter with you guys. It doesn't matter with your kids. And then your reason for wanting, like somebody wants the dishes clean every night before they go to bed as a loving spouse. You want to. Do that for him, right? But if that was the one thing that was broken in the marriage You got a lot of good stuff still on that marriage, right?

There's no safety issues. There's no adultery. There's no bad things going on. So it's [01:02:00] a, I think people just, like I said, I have a real hard time with the Hallmark channel because they make these like fake relationships that nobody on the planet has it's fantasy. And I really feel like they're grooming children from birth to adulthood to want fake expectations.

And that nobody's going to fulfill. That's why I was asking you, do you ever question your clients? Like, where'd you get this from? Is this like reality or is this from like, you know, a fantasy princess diary? 

Mike Fink: I'll tell you though, it's more, I mean, it is possible to find a true match for you, and you'd be surprised that it happens more often than, than it's possible.

And at least on the essential, but I've seen quite often people who check almost all the boxes. I mean, in my own personal relationship, that's the case. You know, there are a few boxes that may not be checked, but there are Really lower the hush rules and everything else is it works and makes sense So and i'll tell you why once you have that clarity you can attract your ideal spouse Uh, but i'll do that in a moment because there's actually another [01:03:00] thing that I want to share first I want to give another practical strategy to your listeners in terms of how to deal with marital discontent Okay, because I had this other client who realized some of the essential values that she had Where, uh, one of them was you wanted a spouse who was a great listener, but listen to this, David, her spouse had ADHD.

So even if you had wanted to be a good spouse and listen to her, it was impossible. She was a storyteller. She would come home and she wanted to tell her day from A to Z, but the poor guy, you know, just. He had a hard time. So obviously that value was not being fulfilled, but one thing, and it's not possible for all the values, but on that one value was possible.

There's a strategy that I call outsourcing. Number one is you need to change your expectations because there's a Richard Bandler, um, uh, the, the co founder of NLP said, Disappointment requires adequate planning. In order for you to be disappointed by [01:04:00] something, you need to have some, a set of expectations, and it's once those expectations are not being met that then you'll be disappointed.

So, If you change your expectations, then you will not be disappointed. I'm not saying you will be happy, but at least you are, don't have the insult added to the injury of the thing not being fulfilled, and then you being mad about it or being disappointed about it. So in, in, in her case, I helped her and she realized that, One of the things that she could do is what I call outsourcing.

Meaning that yes, her husband was not a good listener, but she was able to organize two or three lunches a week with very good friends who are great listeners, and she would be able to spend time with them. You know, share everything that she wanted to share so that then when she would be home, her quote, unquote, listening cop would be filled enough so that she wouldn't have to have her husband fulfill that, that value.

David Pasqualone: Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. And I think it would be wise and we'd be, uh, we'd be negligent not to when they're, forgive me, what's the word you use not compensating. [01:05:00] What's the word you use? Like you're 

Mike Fink: saying 

David Pasqualone: outsourcing. Yeah. You shouldn't be doing that with a different sex. Like if you're missing the husband listening to you, don't go to another guy.

That's just foolishness and opening the door for an affair to happen and it will happen. Guys and girls can't be friends like that. Um, but if you're going to a woman and opening up, that's what Mike saying makes total sense. You're getting your needs met in a safe environment, not being a retard, opening yourself up like a man confiding in his secretary every day.

That's just saying like, why don't you just get divorced now? You're going to ruin your family and children. You're going to have an affair. So I think that that would be reasonable to say, correct, Mike. Well, again, it's like, would you want your wife going to another man to confide in? That's just disaster waiting to happen.

Mike Fink: That's a good question. You know, I [01:06:00] think it's very individual. Uh, I know that, for example, my spouse goes and has lunch with some of her exes or dinner with some exes. I'm absolutely fine because I know they're just friends and I trust her completely. So, um, would I want her to go and share her most intimate secrets or the things that I would expect in a relationship with another man?

No, but I also not want her to do that with another woman because I would expect her to share those things with me. At the end of the day, I believe the answer is individual. Those it, you know, for you, it would be unacceptable because those are the values that you think are the values that should be part of the relationship.

Um, so I guess the answer is, it depends as, as in my role, when I help women, I am completely judgment free. I'm there just to support them and not to say you should be doing this or that because At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what I think. The only thing that matters is what they think. And if you remember the brain, also, if we go back to that and we're going to close the loop, I promise on everything that I opened, you know, a lot of women tell me [01:07:00] my therapist, so my marriage counselor thinks I should divorce.

And they may even agree with them logically, but if it doesn't connect with their primal brain on an emotional level, a visceral level, it doesn't matter. So it doesn't matter what other people think, at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is what you feel and what you think, because that's what's going to make you make a decision in the end, one way or another, not because other people want to.

Or if you make a decision that's based on other people's opinion, you will be, you Out of alignment and you will always be even more unhappy. 

David Pasqualone: I agree. I agree with that. I, I, I guess from my worldview, it's that you need to make, God knows the truth. God knows your real heart and we need to make decisions that between us and God, we can sleep at night with, and everything else doesn't matter.

It's icing on the cake if people accept it, but it really comes down to Us and God in our relationship. So that I totally agree with. I absolutely agree. And I agree with most of what you're saying. I just have a lot of red flags and [01:08:00] cautions. I mean, I'm being honest, I'm 47 about to be 48 and I, it's not even dozens.

It's hundreds of relationships dating and married that, you know, the guy or the girl started confiding in another. Personally, the opposite sex. And I would say I could, I'd probably bet my house. I'll bet my condo on the beach that, you know, like 98 out of a hundred times. And you have a woman talking to another man and adulterous affair is going to happen.

I mean, it's just two plus two is four to me. That's how, that's how much I've seen and how confident I am. And not because I want to be right, because it's human nature. When you open yourself up to that intimate areas and you're doing the opposite sex, especially a guy, you know, you're a guy. A guy will wait, it'll be your friend and wait and wait and wait.

And that one moment of weakness, I'll jump in there after 20 years of being a friend just to get in her pants. So it's like, you know, I just heard a comedian talking about that the other day and I'm like, finally, somebody is talking the [01:09:00] truth, you know, it's like, it's just a different thing. So that's what I'm saying.

I agree with what you're saying. And right there, I totally agree. I just have some real like, uh, like shutter moments of, of. of the expectations that people want, male or female. And, and then the, the intimacy, opening a door to emotional intimacy leads to physical intimacy is what I've seen. 

Mike Fink: And I will say to your point that, you know, it's called, a lot of people tell me, emotional infidelity.

I mean, some people use that term and that's the way they feel whether it's, you know, uh, uh, yeah, the woman tell me my husband, he has not been physical with another woman, but he has had an emotional affair. So that absolutely is part of the realm of possibilities, even if nothing physical happens. And as you say, you know, obviously if you have an emotional affair, it certainly opens the door and increases the probability that a physical thing could happen.

Now, one thing that I think you expressed beautifully is that at the end of the day, [01:10:00] It's all about being in alignment with your values so that you are at peace with it. So that no matter what happens, you are at peace with your decision. regardless of the outcome. That's what being aligned with your values means.

I'll give you another example about outsourcing, right, that I think we can easily agree on. Let's say that a person wants a spouse who is a handyman, who can fix things in the house. Most likely, this value would be an optional one. It can easily be outsourced. Yes, ideally, what husband would know how to do plumbing, but you can always call the plumber or the electrician or whatever.

So I would say in this case, that's one that can be outsourced. But even this value, it depends. If you live on a farm where there needs to be a lot of fixing every day dawn and you want your husband to be the one and that's part of your essential value, then in that case, that may not be outsourceable because no, I am with my husband, we are in the farm, we're working together, he should be the one who is able to do all those things.

So again, there's no absolute. It depends on what the value is and whether it's an [01:11:00] essential one versus an optional one. Does that make sense? 

David Pasqualone: Yeah, 100%. I feel like, do you like, I don't work on a lot of cars cause I never just had the ability in time. Right. But do you like cars like, like an old 69 Mustang or, you know, a classic muscle car?

Have you ever worked on any of those? 

Mike Fink: No, I don't do 

David Pasqualone: mechanics on the 

Mike Fink: car. 

David Pasqualone: No. Oh, okay. Well, I mean, like, I feel like what we're doing today in this relationship, in this conversation, it's like, we get along with like two friends working on a car and the car is this beautiful, valuable car, but we have different aspects and different, uh, ways we're coming at it.

But once we fine tune everything and get on that level of. agreement that that Mustang is going to just purr and just like a kid. So that's what I'm saying. I'm not arguing or disagree with anything you're saying. I'm definitely coming at some things with a different worldview, but I think there's commonality between that.

We, you, me and our listeners [01:12:00] can benefit from, for sure. So keep going with the decision making process. 

Mike Fink: So, and by the way, I really enjoyed this conversation because it, It enables to contrast different point of views and sharpen the thinking and explanation and so on. So yeah, I think that your listeners are getting a lot out of it.

So thank you for being this, uh, aligned with your values host. And it's, it makes for a really wonderful interaction. Yeah. And I'm telling you the truth. I don't, I have zero. I know you are as good as they come in terms of being authentic. 

David Pasqualone: Yeah, no, I'm, I'm cautious because we have, I have a responsibility to our listeners, but if I offend you in any way, tell me straight up.

Cause I, my intent is not to offend, but I feel like in every aspect of life, either you're right and I'm wrong and I can learn, I'm right and you're wrong and you can learn, or both wrong. And God's always right. And we need to find the truth. So as long as we're seeking truth, that's all I care about.

Mike Fink: Perfect. 

David Pasqualone: We're on the same line. 

Mike Fink: So let me tell you about the third step. So we talked about value mapping, gathering all the pieces of the puzzle. We talked about [01:13:00] categorized ranking, which is, um, ordering of values from the most important one to the least important one, and really distinguishing between what's essential versus optional.

And that is enough to give you what I call logical clarity. Your brain now, you can start putting into words, okay, now I understand why my relationship can work, why I could save it, why I can focus on to save it or not. But then how do we communicate that understanding and certainty to your primal brain, the part that is in charge of your decision, the real gatekeeper, the one that says, you know what, until you give me certainty, I'm not going to do anything.

I'm not going to let you budge. So, uh, I'm going to lead you through an example because If you remember, I mentioned that out of the three parts of our brain, the most recent addition, the top layer of ice cream, is the one in charge of language. But the first brain that evolved was the primal brain that evolved when there were dinosaurs around.

So because it evolved before the part that is in charge of language, it means that our primal brain and emotional brain [01:14:00] do not, and pay attention to this because this is huge, right? They do not understand language. They do not understand words. And the paradox is that whenever people seek clarity in terms of what to do, they go to speak with maybe authoritative figures, to a therapist, to a marriage counselor.

They talk with friends. What do all those things have in common? Speech, verbal. Yes, verbal. They're verbal. So, they're trying to convince a part of their brain with a language that it doesn't understand. That's it. So if the primal brain, the gatekeeper of our decisions, doesn't understand words, what does it understand?

And rather than me giving you an answer, let me walk you through a thought experiment that will illustrate the answer. Wait, can I actually ask you a question? 

David Pasqualone: Yes. So if you have one person who works off facts and another person who's working off feelings, [01:15:00] are you saying that the factual person is stuck in that fight or flight mode somehow?

Mike Fink: In terms of not being able to make a decision. 

David Pasqualone: No, maybe communication, the verbal, like, you know how people don't understand each other. It's like they, they wrote that book. Men are from Mars. Women are from Venus. Yes. Yes. You're saying the same thing with two different languages. 

Mike Fink: That's a great remark. I'd say that what they do is they trying to influence, like, let's say two people arguing, whether it's about politics or about any other argument.

What are they trying to do? They're communicating just with, uh, A third of their brain to the other person because they're communicating with words. And that's the part of the brain that understands logic reasoning, but it's not the part of the brain that deals with emotions or survival. Does it make sense?

Yeah. And I'm going to illustrate what I mean. Okay, go ahead. Keep going. Okay. So first of all, [01:16:00] uh, are you in a relationship currently? Yes. You are. Are you married? It was just a dating relationship, dating, dating. Okay, perfect. But it's a stable one. And I would assume that if you were to find out that this person that you're seeing is, we're seeing another man was cheating on you, you would be upset.

Is that the correct statement? 

David Pasqualone: Yeah. 

Mike Fink: Okay. Okay. So here's a thought 

David Pasqualone: experiment would be over. Yes. I don't think she'd ever 

Mike Fink: do that, but yes. Let's let me walk you through a thought experiment, David, you and your listeners. I'm going to give you four different scenarios in which you can find out that your partner is cheating on you.

So first scenario, a person comes and tells you, David, she's cheating on you, but you don't know with whom she's cheating. You don't know what the other guy looks like. You'd be upset, correct? Yeah, I'd verify, but if it was true, then yeah, I'd definitely be upset. Second scenario, the person comes and tells you she's cheating on [01:17:00] you, but this time you know what the guy she's cheating with looks like.

Are you less upset, equally upset, or more upset? I 

David Pasqualone: mean, it just depends on the guy, if he's a loser or if he's like someone that's like, Oh crap. Okay. Third 

Mike Fink: scenario. A person comes to you. They don't say anything. They just show you pictures that they took of your partner cheating with another man. Are you less upset, equally upset or more upset?

Probably more upset. Poor scenario. You come home and you find your partner being intimate with another man and you see them live in front of you. Are you less upset, equally upset, or more upset? Oh, more. Okay. Now, isn't that interesting, David? Because think about it.

It's the exact same piece of information. She's cheating on you. But yeah, there was a difference in the way presented that piece of information. The difference was the ability for you to [01:18:00] visualize it. In the first scenario, you just heard about it. Second scenario, you heard about it, but you knew what the other person looked like.

Third scenario, you had pictures. And fourth scenario, you saw it with your eyes. So the language that your primal brain, the part of your brain in charge of your survival, understands is images. It's visual communication. Now, this also explains why whenever you see a movie where you logically know that it has a happy ending, But you still struggle with the characters during the first two hours of the movie.

You go through the ups and downs of the struggle before you see the happy ending. Because your primal brain feels it, and your emotional brain, they feel it when they see it. Does that make sense? Yes. Imagine, I mean, have you, I have those two examples that I gave for guys is whenever you see the movie Rocky, I mean, you know that he's going to win in the end, logically, but at the beginning of the movie, when he's being pummeled by Ivan Drago and he's [01:19:00] bleeding and he's suffering, so on, you know, you're don't feel that happy.

You feel like, oh man, this is a struggle. But, you know, It's only at the end when you see him winning that you're happy. You see it, or you feel it when you see it. For women, the example that I give is the notebook. They know that Ali and Noah will be happy in the end, but until that happens, until they see it visually, you know, they go through the struggles of the character.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. So the way to communicate your certainty in terms of whether this relationship can work or not or the way to assess your relationship so that all parts of you may understand it, you have to use visual language. And this is where the decoding grid that I have created comes into play.

So what we do is we take this list of values, let's say 20 values, and we distinguish between the essential one versus the essential one. the optional ones, and we create visual contrast. So now you put all the essential values in a dark yellow boundary, and they're bold, and the optional ones are outside of the boundary.

So you already know visually, okay, whatever [01:20:00] is in this dark yellow, it's essential. That means those are the most important ones. The other ones are optional. And then we go, David, and one by one, we assess Whether each value is being fulfilled or not with visual coding. If a value that is important to you is being assessed, then you put a green dot with a check mark.

Because for our brain, green means go. Check mark means good, right? If the value is only acceptably fulfilled, it's a blue dot with a star. It means it's okay. It's not great, but it's okay. Blue is kind of a neutral color. And then if a value is not fulfilled, or if you have the opposite of what you're looking for, that's a big red dot with an exclamation mark.

And usually red means no go. It means stop, right? And once you assess every single value and you see the entire picture, literally you get to assess the health of your relationship at once. And you see, when I look at my essentials, is it more in the green area, [01:21:00] blue area, or red area? And if so, how many are green?

How many are red? And that enables you to understand, not only on a logical level, but also on an emotional and visceral level, the state of your relationship. I have a lot of clients. I had this woman, Naomi. She had actually already started the process of divorcing with her, with her husband. They both decided that they would be better off divorcing.

And yet she was still having second thoughts. She thought, well, what if it's the bad decision? I regret it. What will my daughter think? Et cetera, et cetera. But when she saw visually that out of all the things that were important to her, um, and I think she had like 15, there were only, uh, two that were being fulfilled.

It became really clear that her marriage would not be a marriage that she could save and that the right decision was to move forward. But seeing it visually enabled her to understand it at a much deeper level so that she would know it with her head, with her heart, and with her gut. And that gave her peace of mind of knowing that she was making the best decision [01:22:00] for herself, for her husband, and for her daughter because she was able to see it visually.

Does that make sense? 

David Pasqualone: Yes, yes. And maybe not now, maybe in a little bit, but what are you keep mentioning? We ask these questions. What are our values? Some people don't even know where to start because they're so shell shocked, especially if they're in the middle of a turmoil of a relationship. Do you have a list of questions on your website or that you work with your clients for people to start considering?

Like what are the questions or what values matter to me or what just Characteristics of it. Absolutely. 

Mike Fink: Absolutely. And by the way, because I know we're going to talk about it. I'm just going to mention, you know, the book that I wrote where I spill all the beans. So if people are interested in finding out more, my life mission is to share the process.

I'm going to spill the beans on, on the podcast right now as well. So yes, there is a process to start really digging and understanding what your values are. I call this Aladdin's love manifesto. And the idea is imagine that you are single and that you find Aladdin's [01:23:00] lamp, you rub the lamp. And the genie comes out and says, okay, I'm here and I'm willing and ready to grant you a wish.

What do you seek in your ideal partner? And this opens up the door because it allows you to go pie in the sky without, you know, it detaches you from your current relationship, whether good or bad. And so this is step number one, you can start writing things down. And some of the things are obvious, like maybe you want somebody who's affectionate or trustworthy or a good communicator or Somebody who is a stable financially, but then you start thinking also, okay You can also think about your current relationships, uh, current relationship.

What are the things that I like about my current relationship? Because if you like them, then that means that you, uh, they are important to you. And then think about what are the things in my relationship that made me unhappy and what would be the opposite of that? If I'm unhappy because my husband never listens to me, then okay, I guess then having a good listener is something that is important to me.

So this is another way to go. Another way is to think about previous [01:24:00] relationships and to, um, remember what are the things that I valued or that I liked in those relationships that were being fulfilled? What were the things that did not work out? The things that I didn't like, and what would be the opposite of that?

And the other step is to list the pros and cons of leaving versus staying in your marriage because by listing the pros and cons If something comes up it's because it's related to one of your values one of the things that is related To what is important to you and then this kind of brings up additional gold nuggets in terms of okay This is related to my spouse to my relationship and this enables you to build the list of 20 to 30 values Does that answer your question?

David Pasqualone: Yeah, yes, absolutely. It's just basically I wanted to get a starting point for people to start because there's might be things that they don't consider or all they've known. Like I went, I dated one girl for two years. I married a woman was together for 24 years. And then the first woman I dated, [01:25:00] she's amazing.

And I've been with her for three years. So it's like the only relationships I have are two bad and one good. So it's like for people who need a standard that's healthy, it's like, where do they begin? They pick up your book and you have kind of checklists and ideas in there. 

Mike Fink: Yes, and at the end of the day, again, I mean, I suggest some of the things, for example, you know, what about physical intimacy?

What is important to in physical intimacy? What about, uh, finances? I mean, there are some broad categories, communication, emotional support, finances, but usually people get those. Sometimes they forget to mention because they take them for granted, but I spur them to, to, to, to write them down. But really it's about doing some introspection.

If you take the time, you know, it may take you 30 minutes. It may take you two hours to come up with an initial list, but if you really take the time to see, okay, What are the things that may that give me joy in this relationship and why then you start to understand the things that are important to you?

What are the things that give me grief or happiness in this [01:26:00] relationship and why and what would be the opposite of that? You will come with a very solid list, uh, in terms of starting to understand what's important to you. All right. So now what's next on the journey, Mike? Okay. So as I said, you make this list, you do the categorized ranking, essential versus optional, and then it's really this visual display in terms of what are the values that are being fulfilled, what are the ones that are not being fulfilled, what are the ones that are being excessively fulfilled.

that give you this visual representation and a real state of the health of your relationship. And then comes the, first of all, you understand your relationship on a gut level. And there's also another advantage of the visual channel. And again, I'm going to walk you through a thought experiment because I'm passionate about what I do and we have time to show you the power of the visual.

Let's imagine two different scenarios, David. So there's a cocktail party going on and Scenario number one, I say, you know, in a moment, I'm going to take you inside this room at the cocktail party, but you're going to have a mask on so you cannot see anything, but you can [01:27:00] hear everything. And I'm going to take you in there, and I want you to tell me, based on the conversations that are going on and that you hear, how many people are in the center of the room.

So you go there blindfolded and you listen to the people talking, trying to determine, and maybe, you know, that are between five and 10 people, but how long do you think it would take you to really come with an accurate answer of how many people are in the center of the room talking to one another just by listening?

David Pasqualone: Yeah. I mean, your mind has to adjust and adapt and you'd have to get. I mean, probably within five minutes, we're talking minutes, right? Yeah. How certain would you be of your answer? I mean, I, again, that goes back to the people. Do they confident people in themselves or are they not confident? You know, there's so many factors, but you know, you, 50%?

I don't know. What do you think? 

Mike Fink: Let's say not 100%, right? Because if you listen to it, if you're [01:28:00] just hearing, there's room for error, correct? Yeah. Okay. Let's try the second scenario this time. Same, um, cocktail party this time. I'm going to put you, I'm going to give you ear plugs so you don't hear anything, but you see, I take you into the room and I ask you how many people are in the center of the room.

How long does it take you to give me the answer? Almost immediate. How certain are you of the answer? Very. That's right. So that's another advantage of the visual channel. It enables you to process a much larger number of variables, right? I mean, if you try to just play things in your head in terms of the things that are important to me with 20 or 30 things, it's impossible.

But when you see them displayed in a visual format all at once in color coded, all of a sudden you can assess your entire relationship at once in a holistic way, in a way that makes sense. 

David Pasqualone: Yeah. No, I think that's fantastic. It's a personality test. Everybody just wants to take one now. [01:29:00] 

Mike Fink: But the reality is that all traditional solutions about, uh, decision making or whether it's for divorce or not, they just use language without communicating in a visual way, which is the parts of your brain that the other parts of your brain that have a big influence on your decision.

And they need a different language and words. And you can do this, you know, if you have like, Investment decisions or which buys, uh, how should I buy or which car should I buy? Or should I hire this employee or this other employee, or should I get into a business relationship with this person? Once you understand what you're looking for, what's important to you, those relationships, the variables and assess them properly.

Then you can start rating people. So the next step is understanding based on the health of your relationship, how many things that are essential to you are being fulfilled or not, and whether there's some of the things that are not being fulfilled, how many there are, because if there are just too many things, It's not reasonable for you to expect that the other person will be able to make enough changes.

And then can you [01:30:00] mitigate some of those things with some of the outsourcing strategies I mentioned before, like the handyman or, uh, you know, having a good listener and fulfilling that with a friend or not. So you kind of whittle down the things that require changed and based on however many, uh, changes needed are being left, then you can make a decision.

As to whether it's worthwhile, whether it's salvageable or not. And also you know exactly what to work on. Now it makes sense to go to marriage counseling because you know exactly the specific leverage points to work on to make a difference in your relationship. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Now I will say that having this level of clarity gives you also an additional opportunity, which is whenever you have clarity of all the things that are important to you and which ones are essential versus optional, then it also enables you to attract your ideal, your hack ideal, perfect, happy, perfect relationship.

And I know you make all this a hallmark one, but I'm going to tell you why it works in terms of attracting it. And as I said, It works much more often [01:31:00] than people may think. 

David Pasqualone: So no, and I just want to clarify when I say the Hallmark, the Hallmark person, right? I don't mean you can't have an amazing spouse.

I don't mean you can't have somebody that's just a perfect match for you. So to speak, what I'm saying is there's no completely There's no person without a flaw. There's no person, you know, like they'll show a six foot four ripped out guy. Who's a multimillionaire who takes care of the kids. And you know, he's doing 87 hours a day in 24 hours.

And then he has eight hours to rub her feet. You know what I mean? It's just like totally unreasonable. You know, he comes out of the woods with, with a bicep bigger than Hulk Hogan. And he's got his shirt off. It's just like, if you're in the gym six hours a day, you're neglecting your home and your work responsibilities.

Like there's no human on the planet. Like you're, if you want to be lifted. If you want to be a good husband, if you want to be a good businessman, you can [01:32:00] do two of the three probably, but you can't do three out of three. There's not enough hours in the day. So that's when I say the Hallmark movie. That's what I mean.

It's just a bullshit. Forgive me, but it's a bullshit fake expectation. No man, no woman can live up to that. And I think they're setting up society to fail and to be divorced. 

Mike Fink: You know, you said you cannot do it. You know, the thing that I, that I heard, which I think is good is you can do anything, but you cannot do everything.

Yes, exactly. So that's why it's important to know what's most important to you. What's essential versus optional, because if you really want the ripped guy, then that's what you're going to have to look to. But as you say, if he spent six hours in the gym, those are six hours that he's not spending at home.

Uh, so that's why it's important to understand yourself. But let me ask you this. Yeah. Have you ever been in the market for a new car or a new truck and you have your mind set on a specific make and model and all of a sudden you start seeing this truck pretty much everywhere in the neighborhood? [01:33:00] 

David Pasqualone: Yes, I used to call that the minivan and Mustang effect when I was in high school.

There you go, there you go. And when you start looking, when you start thinking about that vehicle, you notice it everywhere. 

Mike Fink: Exactly. So this is why I say that in a way, you can attract what you have clarity on and what you focus on. Because it's a simple I'm not talking about a lot of attraction here, that has nothing to do with it.

It's a very simple. And by the way, it is compatible. If that's part of your belief system. But what I'm saying is there's a very powerful psychological principle at play here, which is at any given moment in time, there is a ton of information in the environment. So much so that your brain cannot take everything in, you have to filter information out.

And basically you will notice more of what you focus on. So once you have your mind set up on a specific make and model, the minivan or Um, what was the other one? Minivan or 

David Pasqualone: truck? Oh, I was just saying in high school, I remember when Mustangs came [01:34:00] out, nineties Mustangs were so damn ugly. And like, it's just like they're everywhere.

And then like you get older and you go to buy a minivan. You never noticed, but like, dude, everybody's going to Honda minivan. So it's just like, you're a Dodge caravan. You just start noticing what you're shopping. 

Mike Fink: Exactly. Exactly. 

David Pasqualone: So because of that 

Mike Fink: effect, you start noticing things in your environment.

And it's not that your neighbors played a practical joke on you and bought the minivan or the Mustang. It's just that they have always been there. You simply didn't notice them before. In fact, I'm willing to bet. Right now David, I'm going to ask you to place your focus and your attention on your left big toe.

Please wiggle your left big toe in your shoot of, in your foot, in, in your shoes or flip flops or whatever you're wearing. Now you are aware and you can feel your left big toe correct. 

David Pasqualone: Yes, 

Mike Fink: but until I asked you to place your attention on your left big toe, it was as if it did not exist. So once you have clarity on the things that you are looking for in your ideal spouse, it enables you to [01:35:00] start sorting out and noticing the people who display those characteristics and quote, unquote, attract them in your life.

And it also acts as a very powerful disqualifying tool so that you don't make the mistake of going with a person who's not the right fit. Because sometimes we may be what I call Be blinded by the intense. Maybe the other person has a quality that is important to you that is so extreme, they kind of forget about the rest.

Maybe it's a super, maybe it's a, it's a person who's like super good looking, or they have an incredible sense of humor. They're super affectionate. And that's good. If that's part of what's important to you, but having the clarity of the list of the essentials versus the optionals also enables you to see that, okay, is there anything that's essential to me?

That's missing or not. And let's say that you meet a person who checks a lot of boxes, but let's say that kindness is one of them. And then you go out on a date and you see that this other person treats the waiter in a terrible manner. You can say, wow, okay, they're not kind. [01:36:00] So this way you will know not to waste time with a person.

I don't want to say just one, but if you have a confirmation that they do not fulfill that value, and you know that this value is part of the essentials for you, then you already know it's not worth spending time with this person, even though they may have some other qualities. Does that make sense? 

David Pasqualone: Yes, and it's actually, you just triggered a thought I've had for years.

So, people use the words, in the English language, it's the most convoluted probably out of any language, but like, love. Mhm. You know, you can love a donut. You can love your friend. You can love your child. You can love your spouse. It's like there's different levels of the word and different meanings to it.

But I always wonder, do a lot of people get into relationships and they love the person they're with, but not as a spouse. Like that's, I really love this person. I respect them. There's a lot of good characteristics in them and they marry them. But it wasn't the right kind of love. What do you think on that topic?[01:37:00] 

Mike Fink: To me, love is the result of having the things that are important to you being fulfilled. I mean, if you have all of them fulfilled and if you have a person with whom you love them, you appreciate them, it means most likely that they quote unquote fulfill a lot of these that are important to you, but some that are important to you in his house are not being fulfilled.

Maybe it's physical attraction. It could be as simple as that. Or maybe it's something else because they don't want kids and you want kids. Well, maybe it's something about, I don't know, physical affection or whatever that is. You can certainly appreciate or quote unquote, love the other person as a friend or in a certain way, but not as a spouse, because some of the things that are important to you as a spouse are not being fulfilled.

That's my answer for you. 

David Pasqualone: Yeah. Cause God is love and that he embodies love and he showed it through Jesus and the Holy ghost. But when it comes to relationships, like I have some friends, man, I love them. They're my brothers. I die for them without thinking. And they die for me. [01:38:00] But when you have a spouse.

It's like, what should we be looking for? Like, what is, I guess also I never had a healthy model growing up of what a good relationship is, not even a good marriage, just a good relationship. So what is a healthy relationship? Does your book or does your coaching discuss that with your clients? Like, what is a healthy relationship?

And this is what you're looking for. And don't mistake like for love, or don't mistake friendship for spouse. 

Mike Fink: Well, to me, a healthy relationship is when both people are with one another and they fulfill each other's at least essential values sufficiently. So they're both happy because when you have the things that are important to you, you're happy when, when you have the things that are important, you fulfilled, you're happy.

If you have a truck that gives you the storage space that you want and has enough power or whatever, you're happy. If you had a small car that has no space for [01:39:00] you placing your tools and, uh, was a style completely different from what you were looking for. You'd be unhappy. So we feel this sense of happiness and fulfillment when the things that are important to us are being fulfilled and vice versa.

So if a healthy relationship is a relationship that works because both spouse Are good matches fit for one another the things that are important to me are being fulfilled by the other person And the things that are being fulfilled by the other person are important Are being fulfilled by me and again, I don't think there are absolutes, you know Some people say oh you should spend a lot of time with your spouse But you know what?

There are some couples and they like their independence and doing things apart There's a wonderful book called the five love languages by gary chapman. Have you heard about it? Yeah, I've actually read that. Okay. It's a great book. You know, I recommend it. And what he talks about is the fact that we all have different love languages.

So the loud languages are words of appreciation, acts of service, [01:40:00] quality time, physical touch, and gifts. And usually we express our love in the way that we like to receive it as well. So if your love language is physical touch, it means that you will give hugs, kisses, you will stroke the other person gently on the face.

And if your, uh, and if the other person's love language is the same, she will feel love. But what if your love language is quality time? And what if your love language is gifts? If you give gifts to the other person, and what they really want is physical touch, they are not going to feel, um, loved. So that's why I say, there can be a bazillion different relationships that could be happy with very different things that would be fulfilled to one another.

It's just a question of making sure that the things that matter to each partner in the relationship are being matched, the essential ones. 

David Pasqualone: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. So where are we at then? You're working with clients, you're helping people [01:41:00] make decisions, continuing that process. 

Mike Fink: So right now, this is where I am.

I mean, at this point, if my, life mission in terms of sharing this process with the world. I'm working mostly with women considering divorce or fear of making a mistake. They will regret. I help them make clarity and certainty in 30 days or less. And in terms of sharing the process with the world, I have just written the book.

It's called divorce decision decoded. You and I talked about it right at the beginning of the call. It's about to be launched on Amazon, first on Kindle, then on paperback. And I'm spilling all the beans because I want people to have those tools. You know, it would be very selfish of me just to work with my clients and keep it for myself.

I want people to use this process. For their relationships, for their decisions that have to do with business, with life, with all kinds of decision. And, you know, to me, since 2021, I've been on this live mission to spread this important decision making process, because I believe he has the, the potential to transform people's lives.

I've seen so many [01:42:00] times people who were confused for years and in turmoil, and then all of a sudden having this clarity and certainty that I want people to have that. So I'm. Maybe for the next 30 years, I'll do this. And maybe in a few years I'll be working with all the kinds of decisions, whether it's quitting your job or not, or, uh, but, you know, have a lot of things that I want to share with the world on that line right now, I've started with a specific divorce decision.

David Pasqualone: Beautiful. So Mike, between your birth and today, is there anything else that we missed that you want to cover any closing thoughts before we transition to, we kind of talk about where you are and where you're heading, but how people can get ahold of you. 

Mike Fink: I would say that, you know, I've learned several life lessons in terms of my own sense of worth and the importance of loving, in terms of the importance of forgiveness, in terms of the importance of service to others, and I will give this one message that we talked about at the beginning, so in a way it's kind of closing the loop, but I really believe that at the end of the day, [01:43:00] A fulfilled life is a life where you are aligned with your values and achieving the goals that you have set for yourself, but really living your own truth.

The truth that makes it so that on your deathbed, regardless of the outcome, you're happy with the choices that you made because they were aligned with what you believed in and who you are. So understanding what is important to you, understanding your values and being aligned in line with them, to me, it's probably one of the most important things that you can do because if you It makes it for an authentic life.

David Pasqualone: And ladies and gentlemen, we will put as always Mike's information in the show notes and link to his book on Amazon when it releases. And pretty much, um, uh, this episode should release right Almost within the week of his book launching. So if you're listening to this episode, check out the show notes, check out Mike's book and Mike, if someone wanted to get ahold of you and continue the conversation, what's the best place for them to go with [01:44:00] so many social media outlets and websites and phone numbers and emails, what's the best way to get ahold of you?

So if you want to 

Mike Fink: get absolute clarity, go to get absolute clarity.com. That's my website. Get absolute clarity.com. There are three words altogether, and there you'll find a quick link to go and get the book if you want to get the book. And you'll also find, uh, more description of how to work with me and you'll be able to book a free consult to talk to me directly and see for a good fit for me to help you get the clarity and certainty that you're looking for.

So get. AbsoluteClarity. com is the best way to reach me. 

David Pasqualone: Awesome. Well, ladies and gentlemen, we love you. We're here to help. We hope this episode brought you value and was a starting point to your healing and to your next level of life. Uh, but like Mike and I might come at it from a different worldview, but we both agree, the only opinion that matters is God and yours, because you've got to [01:45:00] pillow your head at night and have that value alignment.

So when you make a decision, you can rest within yourself that good, bad, or ugly. Yeah. You made the right decision for the right decision for reasons for you. So Mike, it's been a true honor to have you on the show today, brother. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me, David. It's been a true delight and thank you for 

Mike Fink: allowing 

David Pasqualone: me to spread the message.

Yeah, absolutely. And our friends all over the world, listening, share this episode with your friends and family help. Let's help as many people as we can. If you need something, reach out to me or Mike, and we will do our best to help you. And again, Mike, thank you for being here. My friend. And ladies and gentlemen, we'll see you in the next episode.

Ciao. 

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