Duncan Bhaskaran Brown | Real Men Quit, Thriving in the Sober Sphere, & Changing Our Negative Habits to Positive Behaviors

“It wasn’t until I stopped drinking that I realized how bad life got.”  ~ Duncan Bhaskaran Brown

Guest Bio: Duncan Bhaskaran Brown drank. Wine, cider, brandy. Whatever people had.  After 20 years of wanton excess, he cleaned up his act and trained with the world’s most successful stop smoking clinic. Which wasn’t enough. He studied at Cornell University, the Chartered Management Institute and a windowless room in Peterborough. Which wasn’t enough. He wrote a couple of books, including ‘Real Men Quit’, the armchair macho guide to beating booze. Which wasn’t enough. He’s interviewed sober superstars and conducted research projects which involved watching TV. Which wasn’t enough. What would be enough? Imagine if alcohol-free was the default, if sober was normal and if alcohol stops destroying people. Maybe then Duncan would grab a mint tea and sci-fi novel and relax. Maybe.

SHOW NOTES: 

• Website(s): https://www.bhaskaranbrown.com/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/soberwarriorcoach/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/duncanbhaskaranbrown/
• Listener freebie: https://www.getover.uk

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Transcript

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown | Real Men Quit, Thriving in the Sober Sphere, & Changing Our Negative Habits to Positive Behaviors | 2 Dec 2024

[00:00:00] David Pasqualone: Hey Duncan, how are you today, brother? 

[00:00:04] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: I'm good, I'm always good, but I'm particularly good today. 

[00:00:08] David Pasqualone: Man, we are excited to have you here, ladies and gentlemen from all around the world. Today, we have our friend, Duncan Basker and Brown, and he is going to share some life truths, not just what he was able to achieve or overcome in life, but we're going to break it down to the practical steps of how he did it, so you can too, or at least get a catalyst starting point.

[00:00:31] David Pasqualone: And then at the end of the episode, we'll have his contact info, maybe a special offer so you can reach out to him, continue the conversation. So Duncan. At this time, we're privileged to be here. It's season 11. We've been doing this for five years, 300 plus episodes, amazing listeners around the world. And if they're trying to decide right now if they're going to listen to your episode or not, if you guarantee them one thing they'll be able to walk away with if they stick with the episode, what is that today?

[00:01:00] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: I'm tempted to say there will be jokes, but on a more serious note, uh, yeah, I will basically lay out my entire system for helping people to change their behaviors, whether that's building the good ones or breaking the bad one. 

[00:01:18] David Pasqualone: Yes, and that is so important. All of us to change a behavior is. Crucial at every stage of our life because we're always growing and we're always moving forward, hopefully, and we're always refining.

[00:01:30] David Pasqualone: So ladies and gentlemen, after this, Duncan's going to share a bunch of gold bars with us from his life, but he's going to talk about changing behavior specifically as a theme throughout the episode, so you can have a better life and be more successful. We're going to take a quick affiliate break and then Duncan will be right back. 

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[00:02:50] David Pasqualone: Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. Hope you love that affiliate commercial and SHOP. They support us. They support America. They support you and your family. Take advantage of the special offers. It helps keep our podcast on the air, keeps money in your wallet, and better goods in your home.

[00:03:06] David Pasqualone: So Duncan, at this time, brother, tell us. Everybody has a story. Everybody has an origin. You know, what happened in the past. We don't want to dwell on. We want to learn from it. So what made Duncan the man he is today? 

[00:03:22] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Well, I was at a party when I was just a little teenager, you know, just a little dunk. Well, actually, I wasn't that much smaller, was I?

[00:03:29] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: I was a teenager. Um, and, you know, I wanted to go inside because all of the pretty girls were inside, and they were all dancing on the inside, and I was stood on the outside, and I wanted to go in, but I was too scared. I was too nervous, and I wanted to go in, but I just, I didn't know what to do, and then my friend Hank handed me a can of beer.

[00:03:50] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: beer and i drank it and i thought well this isn't you know it's not up to much is it didn't taste that great didn't seem to have much of an effect um but then you know i thought well i'll have a second one as everybody else is doing it and about halfway through the second one i started to feel it in my toes you know and then moved up through my legs into my stomach into my shoulders into my head and all of a sudden i was dancing and i danced my way into that house and i danced with all of the pretty girls and you know what It worked.

[00:04:22] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: I even ended up kissing that beautiful lady from Form F. It was amazing. Uh, you know, the first time I ever drank alcohol, I thought, this is it. All of my Christmases have come at once. It seemed to kind of fill in a lot of gaps. It seemed to solve a lot of my problems. And I thought that was that, you know, I've sorted this out.

[00:04:44] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: It's all good. And I suppose it might have been for a little bit, um, but time went on and as time passed, I guess I started drinking a bit more. When I started off it, I was, you know, I was [00:05:00] drinking on the weekends, just at parties. It was very social. There was always lots of people around and never drinking that much, but the amount I drank started to creep up and the amount of people that I started to drink with increased.

[00:05:11] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: I went down and I took it to its logical conclusions and I ended up sitting on my own in my flat drinking two bottles of wine every night and uh, well, like breaking news, that ain't no fun. And I was pretty miserable and that was when I decided things needed to change and that is when I began my journey with behaviour change.

[00:05:34] David Pasqualone: And at that point, how old were you, Duncan? 

[00:05:37] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Oh, uh, so we have to do a little bit of reverse engineering. Um, I must've been, uh, 36. 

[00:05:46] David Pasqualone: Okay. So you went 18, 20 years from the time you first tasted alcohol to the time you were like, I need help, but this has gone way too 

[00:05:56] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: far. From the, uh, I mean. I always like to start at that teenage point because it seems really like when I really started drinking, but actually, my parents would give me a little bit of, you know, sherry or wine or beer with dinner on a Sunday, because they thought that, you know, it would teach me to drink responsibly.

[00:06:22] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: They were half right. I mean, it did teach me to drink. Um, I just forgot about the responsible bit. Uh, so I, you know, actually it was probably more like 25 years, but yeah, certainly from those, those heady teenage days, it was a, it was a good 20 years after I started drinking that I realized it had got too much and, uh, things needed to change.

[00:06:43] David Pasqualone: Now, where are your origins to just, we go back in your home, where did you grow up country wise brothers, sisters, mom, dad, family, what was a quick background there? 

[00:06:54] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: So I, uh, grew up and I, I still live in a town called Abingdon, which is just outside Oxford in the United Kingdom. Uh, so it's a lovely place.

[00:07:03] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Um, you know, it's not a tourist advert or anything, but, uh, if you're visiting Oxford's nice. Um, and yeah, I mean, mum and dad still together, you know, very happily married after quite a few years now. Uh, I had one brother, you know, I kind of had what most people would think of as a, as a very happy, stable childhood.

[00:07:27] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: The only real issue that I had when I was growing up was, uh, well, School, just, it wasn't really for me, you know, I, I've, I've thought about it a lot. And I, I guess the conclusion that I've come to is what, What a lot of schools, they're trying to, you know, give you the skills that you need to get a job. You know, they're trying to make you a good employee.

[00:07:51] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: And that didn't really work on me because I'm unemployable. So it just, it was, it was never really going to work out for us. My teachers wanted one thing and I wanted Very different thing. And, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I guess I, I struggled to find anywhere that I could really excel and be myself and be rewarded for who I was and, you know, be accepted for who I was.

[00:08:16] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Uh, and you chuck that into the kind of hormones, nervousness that everybody has around the teenage years. And I think probably, uh, probably part of you a little bit harder than some people. 

[00:08:31] David Pasqualone: Yeah, now, when you were growing up, I grew up in an Italian American family, and, you know, there was wine on the table, and it wasn't a big deal, and people knew, just don't get drunk.

[00:08:41] David Pasqualone: When you were growing up, did any of your family have alcoholism in there, or was this just something that was You tried it, you liked it, and it stuck in your life. 

[00:08:52] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Uh, so my family drinks in, in the broadest sense of the word. Some of them drink levels that are kind of questionable. Um, but I, I don't think any of them would, uh, describe themselves as an alcoholic.

[00:09:09] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Uh, yeah, I, I'm, There is a very fine line, uh, between drinking with problems and being a problem drinker. And I think some of them, some of them are fairly close to that line. But, uh, no, I mean, it's not like I, I grew up in a, in a household that was dominated by that. Uh, I mean, everybody drank. That was just kind of the expectation.

[00:09:31] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Everybody did it. And it was very much linked to kind of maturity, sophistication, being a man, you know, if you want to be a proper man, you got to drink the beer, haven't you? Uh, so all of that head junk arrived in my, uh, in my head, courtesy of my family and the media in general. 

[00:09:51] David Pasqualone: Yeah, and the reason I ask that is because, you know, we have learned behavior.

[00:09:54] David Pasqualone: We do have some generic, genetic markers and some propensities that doesn't give us any of us [00:10:00] an excuse for anything, you know, like, you know, whether it's alcoholism, porn, food addiction, screwing a goat, I don't care what it is. There's no excuse if in genetics, it just might make us more apt to something.

[00:10:12] David Pasqualone: So that's why I was just wondering what your background was. So let's go back to your story. So. You drink beer and get drunk really for the first time. You're feeling it. You kiss this girl. You think this is great. And then it has like that short up and then you got that long 18 years of really, this is not helping me in my life.

[00:10:31] David Pasqualone: So when you're around that 36 year mark and you decide to make a change, where does your life go from there, Duncan? 

[00:10:40] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Well, I mean, it got a whole lot better, a whole lot quicker. It was brilliant. I mean, you know, I hadn't realized how bad it got, I think. Uh, you know, I, I was tired a lot, uh, didn't have much energy.

[00:10:56] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: My concentration wasn't what it should have been. I wasn't really happy. I was On, on one level, I was reasonably successful, but I wasn't really enjoying it. And it, it was only when I stopped drinking that I realized how bad it had got. You know, the, uh, my energy improved, you know, I was jumping out of bed.

[00:11:16] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: I actually spend a lot less time in bed now, but, um, feel, uh, a lot more a, a awake when I, when I get up, you know? Um, and yeah, focus, just the ability to concentrate for long periods of time. It's such a gift, uh, peace, happiness, joy, all of that kind of stuff. I mean, I think one of the things a lot of people don't realize is that alcohol is a depressant.

[00:11:42] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: And, uh, if you drink enough of it, it does make you quite depressed. It makes me, made me pretty miserable, but I hadn't really realized until I stopped doing it. And, and I like took the shackles off my mind and it was like, Oh, this is good. So yeah, I, I mean, I, I think that the benefits of stopping drinking for me were just, I was.

[00:12:02] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Crazy. It was massive. It is by far the best thing that I've ever done to improve my health, life, well being, all of that sort of stuff. 

[00:12:12] David Pasqualone: Yeah. And I think that's universal. I don't know any man, woman, child, any alien that's alcohol long term has ever benefited from. Um, you know, it says in the Bible, give somebody a little wine for their stomach's sake.

[00:12:26] David Pasqualone: You know, if somebody is really sad, sometimes it says give them a little bit of wine and get them drunk just to help ease through the pain for like a day, not for an ongoing years, right? So it's, um, alcohol, alcohol clouds, our judgment, our values, and it, um, it leads to, Bad things every time. So what are some?

[00:12:48] David Pasqualone: I mean, I've 

[00:12:49] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: met a lot 

[00:12:51] David Pasqualone: of 

[00:12:51] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: people who've stopped drinking and I've not met anybody who's actually regretted it. They all think their life is so much better now. So it is 

[00:12:59] David Pasqualone: exactly. And it's like, I love what you said when you were saying it wasn't until I stopped drinking until I realized how bad it got.

[00:13:09] David Pasqualone: It's like, you know, the Bible talks about darkness hath blinded our eyes. When we get into certain, when we get into sin of any sort, we're blind to it. And when we're in alcohol or any kind of addiction, we don't even see it till it's either too late or until after we thankfully make a decision to quit.

[00:13:25] David Pasqualone: So I love that you, you're here like, yeah, once I noticed, I saw how bad I was. Right. Um, so for the people out there who are like, well, I drank, but I don't have a problem. Say they want to try 30 days or three months and get clean. And if I say, why don't you try again, clean for 30 days and three months, and you just fricking flipped out inside, you probably have a problem, right?

[00:13:46] David Pasqualone: But if you think you can take the challenge, Duncan, what are some of the things you saw in your life to help you quit and get clean and get, like you said, you had better clarity of mind, you had more energy, you had more focus. What do you recommend to somebody to get clean? 

[00:14:02] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: So I think. The important thing to realize is that kind of thinking about it, uh, you know, becoming aware of it, that absolutely is the first step that, you know, you can't solve a problem you don't know you have.

[00:14:16] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: So I, I think that, that, that is a great measure. If, if, if the idea of living without alcohol kind of makes you nervous. Then now it's probably time to sort of think about it and go go a little bit further, but you've got to realize you have taken the first step. You've started to become aware that it is a problem and that that is huge.

[00:14:39] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: So many people, you know, I just bumbling along and they think they're doing all right. And, well, you know, they, they don't notice how bad it's got. And, well, you know, we, I hung around with a lot of people simply because they, they were worse than me. It's like, no, I'm not, I'm not bad. I'm not as bad as Mao. I don't drink as much as [00:15:00] him.

[00:15:00] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Uh, you know, it's not a real problem, is it? Um, so just kind of becoming aware of it and being aware of your own, the amount that you're drinking and maybe sort of kind of starting to think about some of the effects that it's having. That is such an important first step. Um, it's not the only one. Do you want me to go through the entire system that I use to help people to stop drinking?

[00:15:22] David Pasqualone: Yeah, 100%. This show is all about being inspired by you and then also taking what you did in your life and applying it to our own. So the more practical steps, the better. You're helping people all around the world. 

[00:15:34] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: So the first thing, you know, acknowledging that, that, that it is an issue and then, uh, kind of try and get some help.

[00:15:41] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: There are, uh, you know, a lot of people out there that will help you. Uh, that's one of the things I've noticed and I've worked with. People from all different aspects of the sober sphere, people who've stopped using um, group programs like AA or Life Ring or Smart Recovery, people who've used uh, psychiatrists um, and uh, counsellors to stop drinking, people who've used kind of cognitive reframing, which is what I do, uh, and people who've just done it, you know, on their own with maybe the help of an app or a book or a podcast or something like that.

[00:16:14] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: And the, the one thing that unites them all is they want to help you. Basically, as I said earlier, you know, stopping drinking is the best thing I've ever done. Of course, I want to help other people to do it. So get some help and there is plenty out there. Um, now the method that I use, it's, you could call it cognitive reframing.

[00:16:35] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: It's kind of a part of cognitive behavior therapy, which I'm sure your listeners have heard of. It's a very simple idea and it is that your beliefs drive your actions. So what you do is dictated by your actions. You know, what you believe. And there's a fairly good example that happened in America recently.

[00:16:55] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: You had an election, didn't you? And a lot of people went out and voted in that election. And you've got to ask yourself, why did they do that? You know, why, why go to all of that trouble? drive to the polling station, you've got to register yourself, all of that. Why do they go to that trouble? It's simply because they believe that voting is important.

[00:17:13] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: They believe that democracy is the best way to run a country, and that if we don't take part in democracy, then it doesn't work. So it is the belief that drives those actions, and it's exactly the same with drinking. What you believe about alcohol is very highly correlated to the amount you drink, and that obviously isn't my belief.

[00:17:32] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: That's actually, you know, what all of the science says. So you've got to start off by getting to grips with what you believe. Now, some of the things that I hear all of the time is people believe it helps them to socialize. It believes it makes them creative. Uh, it believes that it helps them to reduce their stress.

[00:17:50] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Um, it believes that You know, they believe it helps them to, uh, have fun. So there's, there's all of those kinds of things. And you've got to sort of start off by identifying those beliefs, bringing them out into the open, because normally they're just kind of sitting under there. You're thinking, Oh, I'm stressed.

[00:18:06] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: I'll have something to drink. So it's the belief that's driving the action. So you've got to identify it, get it out into the open, and then you've got to start examining it. And you've got to ask a couple of questions. The first being, is it true? Now, just one example, you know, does alcohol help you deal with stress?

[00:18:23] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Very, very commonly our belief. Uh, alcohol relaxes me, it helps me deal with stress. Okay. Is that true? So, I'm sure all of your listeners have heard of cortisol. It's the stress hormone. I'm sure they all know that. Um, and so if alcohol helped you to deal with stress, it would reduce your cortisol levels, wouldn't it?

[00:18:42] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: It would reduce the stress markers in your body. Alcohol actually increases those stress markers. It increases your cortisol level. So every unit of alcohol you drink increases your cortisol by 3%. So as a way of reducing your stress, not working, is it? So you, you know, just looking at that one little aspect, asking yourself whether it's true, but going beyond that.

[00:19:06] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: You know, asking yourself whether it's serving you. Is the alcohol you drink helping you become the person you want to be? Is it getting you to where you want to be? Because I have, I've talked to many, many people about this and I have never met anybody who's, who's genuinely just had got to that point and said, Oh yeah, no, actually Duncan, it's really, it's really helping me live the life I want to live.

[00:19:30] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: So you've got to ask, uh, you know, whether it's true and whether it's serving you, and if it's not true and it's not serving you, chuck it in the bin, get rid of it. It's, uh, it's no good. So that's kind of like a real quick tour of how to get to grips with your beliefs. Once you've really worked on your beliefs, then you need to kind of Manage the thought process because you are still going to think about alcohol.

[00:19:55] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: So, you know, I love American football. Absolutely. [00:20:00] Absolutely. Love it. Love it. Watch it every week. And I know that for many people, it's one of those things. The game is on. Let's have a beer. Now, if you stop believing that alcohol enhances sport, it doesn't really matter because when the, You know, when the title music starts playing and the, uh, the sports on the TV, your brain is still going to go, Oh, we should have a beer.

[00:20:24] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: We're watching football, you know? So you've got to think you've got to have a way of dealing with that thought process. And that's basically, uh, Well, becoming aware that those thoughts are going to happen. There are going to be triggers for those thoughts. They're going to be things like football, things like dinner, things like arguments.

[00:20:43] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: There's going to be a lot of them. So there's a little bit of a physical component, but that does it. It's not really the main problem. Mostly they're situations, people, places, uh, you know, uh, emotions and feelings and things like that. But it doesn't really matter what causes it. Whenever you get that kind of, I want a drink.

[00:21:02] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: then you need to think something different. Now I, you know, tend to work with people, lots of different mantras that they could use. One of the ones I use most commonly is Real Men Quit. I do that partly because it's the name of my book, but also because it's, uh, you know, a nice kind of positive thing to say.

[00:21:21] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: So as soon as you, you get that thought about having a drink, you kind of think to yourself, Oh, Real Men Quit. And you have a bit of a smile that creates a celebration and that helps to turn it into a system. It helps to kind of drive that behavior because celebration is a great way of driving behavior.

[00:21:37] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: If you enjoy it, you do it, don't you? If it is fun, it gets done. So once you've kind of like, Like, become aware of those triggers, change the action, so instead of, you know, having a beer, you're thinking real men quit, or a mantra that you like, something like that, and then you're celebrating. That manages the thought process.

[00:21:58] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Once you've done that, honestly, the behavior's the easy bit. So you've got to do the beliefs and then the thoughts and then the behavior follows. Don't try and do it the other way around though. I've met a lot of people who tried to do the behaviors and hope the thoughts and the beliefs catch up. Sadly, they tend not to.

[00:22:14] David Pasqualone: Yeah, they just transfer to something else or get worse. Yeah. So let's do this. We talked about lies, right? Just from your experience personally with the people you work with, somebody has the lie, man, I get so stressed in public situations, alcohol helps me relax. What's an alternative you'd recommend for that?

[00:22:40] David Pasqualone: So, 

[00:22:40] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: I, I would.

[00:22:46] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Advocate, kind of rethinking it, reframing it. So the other day I was at a networking event and, um, like, I don't, I don't know about you, but I'm not mad keen on networking is something that's important. Um, you know, I've made some really great contacts, business out of it, partnerships. It's important, but I'm not going to tell you that I enjoy it.

[00:23:11] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: You know, and I went into, um, I went into the room and I actually, I knew a few people there, but they were like, they would like, you could just tell by looking at them, they were having those kind of intense conversations. They didn't want me to interrupt. And there was a few people that I didn't really know.

[00:23:26] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: And I was a bit nervous. So I went over and I made myself a cup of tea. And once I was making a cup of tea, I sort of like looked around the room, and I rethought it a little bit, and I kind of relaxed a little bit, and had a sip of my tea, and then went and just thought, I'll go and talk to somebody. Now, listening to that story, I doubt any of your listeners are thinking to themselves, Wow, tea?

[00:23:48] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Yeah, that is absolutely the thing to remove nervousness in social situations. I need to drink six pints of tea every night. However, if you tell that story and you use the word alcohol instead of tea, people think, oh yeah, the alcohol's really helping me. But it's not the alcohol that helps you. It's the fact that you've just relaxed because you've been there a little bit longer and you've kind of got into it.

[00:24:11] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Because that's what happens in social situations. We are nervous at the start and we relax into it. And it, you know, that's true of adults. It's, you know, True of kids as well. I mean, you just go to any kids party, anytime, they'll always be right, really nervous at the start, won't they? They'll all be huddling around the edge, holding on to mummy's leg or whatever.

[00:24:31] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Uh, five minutes later, they're destroying the place, aren't they? They're playing who can tear the radiator off the wall quickest. And, um, it's, you know, it's just a natural human reaction to be nervous at the start of the event, but those nerves will go. You will get over it. You will just kind of, Relax into it.

[00:24:49] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: You'll find someone to talk to. You'll be absolutely fine. But the thing is, you don't actually need anything to help you with that. The alcohol never helped you with that. The alcohol was just, you know, [00:25:00] there at the same time as this kind of natural process. So yeah, just go along. Be brave. Have a cup of tea.

[00:25:08] David Pasqualone: Yeah. No, I couldn't agree more. And then Other, um, lies that are super, people get in their head and it's straight from Satan. They're like, man, nobody likes me unless I'm drunk. Like, how do you deal with that in your circle? 

[00:25:26] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Yeah. So look, I mean, this is a very common one. I think a lot of people are really nervous that they're not going to be fun and nobody's going to want to spend any time with them.

[00:25:37] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: And look, you know, I don't think it would be fair to say, well, look, you won't ever get any pushback from anybody if you stop drinking or, uh, you know, choose not to drink on one occasion even. Uh, some people will make a big deal of it. But honestly, I think they'll change their mind fairly quickly. I think what you.

[00:25:59] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: is that you go out and you enjoy yourself and if you go out and enjoy yourself, people still want to spend time with you because you're enjoyable, uh, and you're interesting and you're fun and you were like that before you started drinking. You know, the fact that you've stopped drinking is not going to change that.

[00:26:18] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: you If anything, it's going to make you more interesting because, well, honestly, have you ever talked to someone who's drunk? They're really boring. They repeat themselves. They talk too loud. They make jokes that aren't funny. Then they repeat themselves some more. Uh, they're just like Deathly boring people.

[00:26:37] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: The most boring time I've ever had is in a room full of very drunk people because like being drunk does not enhance your ability to have fun. It does not make you a more interesting person. Uh, you just don't notice how bad you are because you're drunk. And, uh, if everybody else is around you is drunk, then they don't notice either.

[00:26:59] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Um, 

[00:27:01] David Pasqualone: but generally If they're laughing, they're normally laughing at you because you're making a fool out of yourself, and they're laughing at you at your expense. And then the other thing is, a lot of times, people are just belligerent a holes when they're drunk, and they think they're charming people, and everybody's like, what an a hole.

[00:27:18] David Pasqualone: Like, they don't want anything to do with you. 

[00:27:22] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Yeah, yeah, look, I mean, I've done, to be honest with you, that was, on more than one occasion, that was probably me, you know, I thought I was being the most amazing person ever, but no, I know, I was just being a, yeah, um, yes, an a hole, we'll go with that. And, Look, I mean, I think that's one of the worst things about alcohol.

[00:27:43] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: It doesn't help you be more yourself. It kind of masks who you really are. It, it, it, it robs you of, of authentic contact with people. Um, I've done some stuff that I really, really regret. I feel bad about and, you know, being drunk was not an excuse, but I've done that sober. No way I would have done that sober.

[00:28:05] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: That's not me. And I just, I like now that I am always able to behave in a way that really, you know, is congruent. It resonates. It's authentic. You know, it is actually me. 

[00:28:19] David Pasqualone: Yeah, and I love that you're not only sharing transparently, Duncan, but um, everything you're saying lines up with scripture. You know, the Bible says, wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

[00:28:35] David Pasqualone: It's just saying, like, if you drink and get drunk, it's, you're mocking yourself. And, you know, the alcohol is just going to cause you problems and ruin your life. And if you're doing it, you're a fool. Like there's no reason to be getting drunk. So thank you for talking about this. So between your birth and this point in your life, we're discussing where you're waking up and realizing I don't need alcohol.

[00:28:57] David Pasqualone: Is there anything we missed Duncan before we transitioned to that point to where you are today? 

[00:29:04] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: So, I mean, one of the things that comes up quite a lot when people talk about alcohol is this kind of idea of unprocessed trauma and difficult times. And look, you know, I'm not going to turn around and tell you that I've had the charmed life.

[00:29:22] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: I've had some, uh, difficult moments. My, I mean, the, the thing that really kind of prompted me to stop drinking was my wife and I, uh, we, we, you know, wanted to take it to the next level. We were very. Serious and committed. So we thought, Oh, start a family. It's the thing to do. And, um, we were kind of quite happy and quite optimistic and it.

[00:29:47] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: All seemed to be going very well until my wife had a miscarriage, and then it all completely and utterly fell apart. And look, I mean, you know, I'm not going to lie to you, that was very hard on her. And what made it [00:30:00] worse was I just wasn't there for her. I wasn't, you know, around to, to help her the way that I should.

[00:30:06] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: should have done because at the time my way of dealing with stress was to to get drunk my way of dealing with difficult emotions was just to pour myself into a bottle of wine and that really did not help that just made it a whole lot worse for her and I think you know a lot of people connect drinking with the difficult events like that for me that one was a catalyst to stop um rather than anything else and I think there's a bit of a I don't know.

[00:30:39] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Some people kind of make too much of a deal about it. It's like, well, I can't have a problem with drinking because I didn't have a difficult childhood or, you know, I've, I've not had any serious trauma in my life, but the research that we've done talking to people and asking them the reason why they think they, they got into difficulty with drinking.

[00:31:00] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Yeah. There is a lot of trauma, particularly connected with childhood that you do see in people that have. And then there are traumatic events in adulthood, which often kind of set off an increase in drinking, but not everybody talks about that. You know, if you've just had a good life, but you started drinking early and you were exposed to it a lot when you were young and you drank a lot.

[00:31:28] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Particularly before the age of 25, if you drank heavily before then, you don't need any kind of like traumatic events in your life. You don't need anything difficult to set it off. So, uh, if you're, if you're worried, um, but you're kind of saying, well, it can't be me. I can't have a problem because I don't fit the kind of typical mold of what we think of as a problem drinker.

[00:31:51] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Like, forget that. You know, just judge yourself for where you are. Don't compare yourself to anybody else. And if you're worried about it, you know, honestly, there are a lot of people out there that want to help you. 

[00:32:05] David Pasqualone: Yeah. And I think that's a great point, not comparing and judging yourself where you are, because you can change it from alcoholism to gambling addiction, to food addiction.

[00:32:15] David Pasqualone: So I had a conversation, um, with someone and it was like, if somebody was gambling two or three times a week and they lost 10, 000. The first thing people say is you have a problem. But if that person was gambling two to three times a week and they had to go and they won 10, 000, they still have a problem.

[00:32:36] David Pasqualone: They just happen to be on the other side. So you could be a functional addict. You could be doing great in life and not everybody is a legitimate addict. They use it as a crutch. They use it as a tool. It still doesn't make it right. It still hurts your life. But you know, an addiction means you, you have to have it.

[00:32:54] David Pasqualone: Some people could stop, but they choose not to, or they stop for a while. That's why it's great to see your life that you stopped. And have you had any relapses, or have you just been clean since you made that decision, Duncan? 

[00:33:05] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Uh, no, no, I, I, I, I think. You know, using that process that I talked about, uh, for removing all of those beliefs, uh, was the, the moment I stopped drinking, I didn't want to drink anymore.

[00:33:20] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: I just, I had no desire to do it again. I knew that it wasn't going to help me at all. It wasn't going to make my life better. It wasn't going to relax me or help me socialize or deal with my stress. So when anything difficult happens, my brain doesn't say anymore. Oh, let's have a drink, you know? Uh, so no, I, I, I didn't have any relapses.

[00:33:42] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Although, I mean, in fairness, I, I, there were a couple of points where I tried to kind of control my drinking. Uh, and there were a couple of points where I tried to cut back a lot. And that didn't really work. So, uh, since, since I got it right, I haven't had any relapses, but, uh, it, it took me a couple of goes to get where I was and, you know, that's not unusual.

[00:34:09] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: And people do kind of get Disheartened sometimes when they have relapses, but the thing I think it's most important to realize is you've got kind of got to make a distinction between a lapse, which is just, well, you just had something to drink, um, but you didn't go revert back to your kind of what you were doing.

[00:34:31] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Previous behaviors, that really can just be a lesson where you learn something, you know, that can just be a slip and that can teach you something. And I've met plenty of people who are like that, where they, they, they mucked it up a little bit and, you know, they, they, they come back and we have a conversation about it and we kind of help them to think through it and understand it and kind of go back through the process and make sure that they've got everything right.

[00:34:59] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: And [00:35:00] then that can be a really, really valuable lesson. So it's not always a bad thing to, uh, have a little bit of a lapse, shall we say, I, what the analogy I often use with people is like. Uh, did you pass your driving test first time? Um, because I certainly didn't it took me three goes to pass my driving test.

[00:35:20] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Not everybody passes it first time, you know sometimes you've almost just gotta stuff it up a little bit learn a lesson and uh, that makes it solid the next time so yeah, I mean I I don't know i'm i'm lucky I think the Other thing it's worth pointing out is a lot of people take it for granted that what they have around them, but I am very lucky in as far as, you know, my wife is, has been a great support to me and she, uh, you know, is stuck by me despite the fact that I was a complete idiot at points.

[00:35:55] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Um, and, uh, I'm lucky I've got some really good friends who are very understanding, very close with my parents. They, uh, They live in the same town as I do, uh, very involved in my community. So I've got a lot of support around me, which made, made it easier for me. And not everybody has that. And I think if you kind of like, just look at me and go, well, Duncan found it easy.

[00:36:18] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: It must be easy. It's like, well, yeah, but you know, I, I had a lot of stuff going for me. And if you don't necessarily have that in place, then it is going to be harder. 

[00:36:28] David Pasqualone: Yeah, and I was going to ask you, so before you and your wife experienced the miscarriage, was alcohol not getting in the way of your marriage or it just wasn't to that point?

[00:36:44] David Pasqualone: It was kind of brush it under the rug, ignore it. 

[00:36:48] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, looking back on it, it obviously was, but at the time, it didn't really seem like it because it was just, well, that was our relationship. We came into our relationship and we were who we were and I was drinking and, um, and I, I can see it a lot.

[00:37:12] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Now, looking back on it, because I think I have, uh, I have grown an awful lot since I stopped drinking. I mean, it's nine and a half years now. So a lot, a lot has happened. And I like to think I have improved my emotional intelligence quite significantly. In those nine and a half years, so, uh, I can, I can sort of see the things that I was doing that weren't very healthy and weren't helpful for our relationship.

[00:37:39] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: And like I say, I am very lucky that I have such a wonderful and understanding wife who, uh, who could see past it all and, She never really gave me a hard time about it. She always just kind of nudged me in the right direction. Um, but yeah, I'm, I mean, looking back at the way that we used to interact, I think if we'd continued to do that, we wouldn't still be married today.

[00:38:05] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: So I'm, you know, I'm, I'm incredibly pleased that we've managed to, you know, find the way through, not simply Drinking and miscarriages, but all the other problems that you have in life. And we we've, we've found a point where we're. We're in quite a good place, uh, and, you know, I'm, I'm very, very happily married, uh, and I'm really aware that, like, stuff is going to change, and you get into these nice little rhythms, don't you get into this nice little groove and you think it's all going really, really well, and then stuff changes and you have to figure it out all over again, but at the moment our relationship's in an amazing place, so.

[00:38:46] David Pasqualone: Oh, yeah. And I'm not trying to get you where you're not or trying to get, it's not like this isn't a tabloid show where we're trying to get dirt out, but we're trying to be real and transparent because normally if people are an alcoholic, they got real issues in their marriage. So, um, what did your wife socially drink, not drink at all?

[00:39:02] David Pasqualone: Did she drink heavy? When you guys were going through that, where, where was she in the spectrum? 

[00:39:08] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: So, my wife, uh, was never really a, a big drinker, uh, and she's not now. I mean, she drinks, she drinks once a week and it's when we have dinner with my parents, uh, and my parents are a bad influence on my wife. I don't think she would drink at all if it wasn't for them.

[00:39:26] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Um, I know that's probably not fair, but I mean, we, we went to a wedding, um, you know, in the summer and. She had one drink and that I think is is typical of her and I think she is one of the people that I know and I don't know that many of them but she's one of the people that I know that I think really drink in a low risk way.

[00:39:54] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Now, there is no way to drink without risk. You know, alcohol is a [00:40:00] toxin, it's carcinogenic, and it's addictive. So, there is always a risk to drinking it. However, there is a low risk way of drinking, and, you know, She does that. So I, I can't, I can't argue with her drinking. She never drinks more than one drink.

[00:40:16] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: She never drinks more than twice a week, and she never drinks more than three weeks a month. So that kind of one, two, three, never more than one drink, never more than twice a week, never more than three times a month. That, I think, if you look at the science, that, that really is the, the, the easiest. way to drink it.

[00:40:33] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: It's kind of low risk level. Give your body a bit of a break. Make sure that, um, you know, you're not causing any serious negative effects. And honestly, you know, I think if you do that, you actually enjoy it more. I think that low risk drinking is far more pleasant than any other form of drinking. I think, and again, science, the science is pretty clear on this.

[00:40:57] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: I mean, we understand the effect that rising blood alcohol levels. have on you, and actually if you look at all of the pleasure, it comes from the first drink. We always chase that pleasure with the second, and the third, and the fourth, and that's when you start to get into the serious negative, uh, effects.

[00:41:14] David Pasqualone: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I'm always Aaron the side of caution, just stay away from it, but people are going to make their own decisions. But, and then the reason why I'm glad, thanks for talking with your wife a little bit, just because it sounds like she is a grounded, stabilizing force in your life. And that helped you, to have that because you know sometimes you could have a person who's fine and another person who's fine but when they get together they are not fine they contribute to the worst parts of each other and it doesn't matter if it's alcohol drugs eating or just physical crime um but when it comes to alcoholism and knowing you had a stable wife that's fantastic because she helped you so where's Duncan today where are you headed next my friend So, 

[00:41:59] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: at the moment, well, I just started, um, uh, I'm doing a collaboration.

[00:42:05] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: My next book is with a friend of mine who is a magician, fire eater, entertainer, and juggler extraordinaire, and we're doing a, a book, it's a working title is Juggle Yourself Productive, but it's about the, uh, the myriad productivity and well being benefits of juggling, um, which I am super excited about because it, it's, I've been a juggler for my whole life, but, you know, strictly amateur just for kind of fun.

[00:42:36] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Um, and it is a really exciting project. I think it's, I think it's going to be excellent. So, uh, I'm doing the bulk of the writing. He's doing the bulk of the thinking. So I think I've got the easy bit. Uh, we just started on that. That's, that's really, really good. Next year, I'm going to break the world record for the longest Morris Dance, the Morris Dancing Marathon, um, which often leads to two questions.

[00:43:03] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: The first being why, and the second being what the heck is Morris Dancing? I have a feeling you're, you're nodding to the second one, right? 

[00:43:11] David Pasqualone: Yeah, start with the second. What is Morris Dancing and why break the record? I think it's cool. I always wanted to be in the Guinness Book when I was a kid. 

[00:43:19] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:43:20] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Well, as an adult, I think 

[00:43:21] David Pasqualone: it would be cool. 

[00:43:22] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Yeah, it's ironic, really, that it's named after an alcohol company, isn't it? I mean, it's just because back in the day, they used to sponsor it. They don't anymore, but they haven't changed the name anyway. So what's Morris dancing? Well, it's kind of English folk dancing.

[00:43:38] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: It's sort of traditional. If you think of, like, your pretty village green, you're kind of like, um, slightly Downton Abbey sort of a view. And then sticks and people in it. They're all dressed in white, got ribbons, got hats with flowers on, waving hankies, dancing around to traditional English folk music.

[00:43:59] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: That's Morris dancing. And, uh, yeah, I, I, I've been dancing for about 20 years now. Um, but I absolutely love it. And yeah, I was, the funny thing is I was just talking to some marathon runners that I know, some ultra marathon people, some triathletes, and I was thinking, I want to do something big. I want to do some endurance thing, but I don't just want to do something boring.

[00:44:25] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: I've got to do something that's slightly more interesting. So I thought, right, you know, the, uh, That particular record is there for the taking, in my opinion. So, uh, yeah, I'm going to attempt to, uh, Morris dance about 13 miles. That's the, that's the aim. 

[00:44:43] David Pasqualone: Nice, man. We'll keep us posted. We'll put an update in the website and the blog and the podcast.

[00:44:49] David Pasqualone: So between the birth. Of Duncan and today, is there anything we missed in your story that you want to cover [00:45:00] or any final thoughts about, you know, we start off, we said, if people listen, this is going to be about changing behavior. Any other big tips? You're like, hey, if you want to change your behavior, try this, this, and this.

[00:45:11] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: I think the one thing that we haven't really talked about is, uh, is my daughter. I mentioned, um, you know, that my wife and I were trying to start a family and we, we had the miscarriage and it was, it was really, really hard. Um, and I guess the flip side is the good news that almost exactly nine months to the day after I stopped drinking, um, our daughter was born.

[00:45:33] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: And I mean, she's fantastic. I love her to bits. She's absolutely amazing. And. It's one of the things that I, I hear a lot around alcohol. A lot of people, they, they stop drinking, um, either like I did, you know, in the run up to starting a family and building a family, or when their kids are kind of young, or, you know, Sometimes when their kids are getting to the point where their children are starting to become aware of what's going on, or actually a friend of mine, Dave, his daughter videoed him when he was drunk and showed him the next day, and that was what motivated him to stop drinking.

[00:46:19] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: So it's something that is often tied up with, with starting a family or helping, you know, be that kind of role model, be the example that you want to be to, to your children. And I think that hits at something very important, not just around alcohol, but around all behavior change. You know, motivation is so important.

[00:46:38] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: You've got to know why you're doing something and you've got to actually You know, you've got to be kind of, you've got to enjoy the process. So yeah, look, there's a big why for me. Why do I want to do a Morris? Yeah, I want to be in the Guinness Book of Records. Yeah, it sounds good, doesn't it? But actually that's probably not enough, is it?

[00:46:59] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: I mean, it'll get you started, but what keeps you doing it is just enjoying the process. So I, weird as it sounds, I do actually quite like running, uh, and that's kind of evolving now into long distance dancing. Um, but I started running just to get my fitness kind of up and my endurance where it needed to be.

[00:47:20] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Much. The process. And I think if you can enjoy the process, then you will always continue those behaviors. If you are just looking. Uh, you know, off to something in the future that might get you started, but it probably won't sustain it. And that's why the family thing is such a great form of motivation because you can see it every day.

[00:47:43] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: You know, you can just be that little bit better every day, do it for the kids, see the effect that it has, you know. Um, and I think that's, That's one of the things that I would love to get across to people. But, uh, you know, having that, that motivation that can help you enjoy the process and just do it every day, that makes such a big difference, whether you're building a good habit or breaking a bad one.

[00:48:10] David Pasqualone: Yeah. Beautiful. Now, if somebody wants to get in touch with you, Duncan, what's the best way to reach out? 

[00:48:16] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Well, I'd like to, uh, give your listeners, um, a little gift. So, my first book was called Get Over Indulgence. Actually, it wasn't my first book. I wrote some other ones about local government that aren't very interesting, but we'll ignore that.

[00:48:28] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Uh, so, the, yeah, Get Over Indulgence, I'd love to offer them a copy of that. Um, if they put getover. uk, that's getover. uk into their favorite search engine, that'll take them to a bit of my website. You can download a copy of the book from there. Have a little read, it's kind of gentle, you know, I don't want to You might learn something from it, but I don't want to detract from the fact that it's just an interesting story and there are jokes.

[00:48:55] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: Uh, it is basically my story of going from, you know, drinking too much and eating junk food and smoking and just generally living a life that was not what I wanted to all of the energy, the focus, the health, the happiness, the joy and the love and all of that. And like you say, it's just a nice little story.

[00:49:16] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: I don't want to put you off by. Saying you'll learn something. Um, uh, yeah, that's get over indulgence. So put getover. uk into, uh, the internet and that will take you to that bit of my website. You can download the book, but you can also find out the rest of the stuff we do, uh, is on there. We're pretty busy on, uh, various social media platforms, particularly LinkedIn.

[00:49:39] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: So, you know, connect with me, you hook up. With, you know, ask me a question, right? Seriously, send me a message, ask me a question. I might not be able to help, but I guarantee if I can't help, I will know somebody who can. So please reach out if you've got any questions or if you need anything, please just let me know.

[00:49:58] David Pasqualone: Yeah. And like [00:50:00] always, we'll put links in the show notes. Thank you, Duncan, for that special offer. And ladies and gentlemen, don't just listen to great content that Duncan brought you. Like our slogan says, listen to it, do it. Repeat the good each day. Form those habits Duncan's talking about so you can have a great life in this world, but more importantly an eternity to come.

[00:50:23] David Pasqualone: It's a lot longer than 80 years on average, right? So Duncan, thank you so much for being with us today, brother. I really appreciate having you here and I know our listeners did too. 

[00:50:34] Duncan Bhaskaran Brown: It's been an absolute pleasure and, uh, you know, I hope all the listeners, uh, can jump on their favorite podcast platform and give you a five star review, help you share all of the, uh, wonderful work that you do and get your messages out there as well.

[00:50:46] David Pasqualone: Oh, thank you. So ladies and gentlemen, thanks for being here. Share this with your friends and family who need it. Reach out to Duncan, continue the conversation. Shop our affiliate sponsors because they're supporting us. We can bring this great content to you for free. And uh, other than that, we love you, have a great day, and we'll see you in the next episode.

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