Remarkable People Podcast

Dr. David Harvitz | Full Healing from Physical Injuries, Abandonment, & the Pains of Our Past | Episode 66

July 27, 2021 David Pasqualone / Dr. David Harvitz Season 3 Episode 66
Remarkable People Podcast
Dr. David Harvitz | Full Healing from Physical Injuries, Abandonment, & the Pains of Our Past | Episode 66
Show Notes Transcript

Dr. David Harvitz | Full Healing from Physical Injuries, Abandonment, & the Pains of Our Past | E66


In this power-packed episode, Dr. David Harvitz shares his life story, the personal challenges he faced on his journey, and the hope and peace he found along the way. He shares not only how he overcame being abandoned by his father at a young age, but how he recovered from serious illness in his adulthood, started a successful Physical Therapy concierge business, helps people heal everyday, and most importantly, how you can too!


Dr. David Harvitz is the owner of ReNew: Concierge Physical Therapy. He has spent the last 11 years working in various orthopedic settings refining his manual therapy skills and now brings those skills to your doorstep. He received his Doctorate of Physical Therapy in 2010 from the University of Pittsburgh, the #1 ranked school in the country for physical therapy. Since then, Dr. Harvitz has progressed through the Manual Therapy Certification track through the University of St. Augustine. He specializes in treating the issues other healthcare practitioners struggle to identify and treat properly.


  • “We can work hard from a place of rest without toiling.” – Dr. David Harvitz


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While we are very thankful for all of our guests, please understand that we do not necessarily hold, or endorse the same beliefs, views, and positions that they may have. We respectfully agree to disagree in some areas and thank God for the blessing and privilege of freewill. 


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Dr. David Harvitz | Full Healing from Physical Injuries, Abandonment, & the Pains of Our Past | Episode 66

Hello friends. I'm David Pasqualone and welcome this week's episode of the remarkable people podcast, The Dr. David Harvitz story!

Ladies and gentlemen, my mind is popping and moving. And it's hard for me to focus to make this intro, because this is an amazing episode. If you're listening to this and you have physical pain.

If you have been told for years, like we can't find what's wrong with you or your hypochondriac or you're, you know, you're just, it's psychosomatic. This [00:01:00] is the episode and a guest you really want to listen to and maybe get to know the reason why I'm saying that is I was introduced to Dr. Dave through a mutual friend of ours and previous guests on the show.

Jean Valentine. Jean spoke nothing but great things. Dave, Dave, and I had some conversations you're going to see, you know, he went to the university of Philadelphia for his doctorate, which is a number one PT school in the country. If not the world, you're going to see how he's a godly man and his journey on the way and how we can all glean.

And grow as men and women so much packed in this episode. So much truth, so much knowledge, I'm super stoked for it. But then after we recorded the episode, I'm talking with one of my friends, who's a massage therapist and she made a passing comment about her back. And I'm like, what happened with your back?

[00:02:00] And she was like, yeah, I just, thank God I can be here today. Doing my job. She's like, because just a year ago I could barely function and now I'm working. Full-time again, I'm running, I'm living a full life, but just a year ago, I was ready to give it up and file disability. So I'm like what happened? And she's like 20 years ago I was hit by a car three weeks after I had a baby.

She's like, then shortly after that I started getting white flashes, like white outs where it looked like electricity was in my brain. It was coming from nerve damage. And she's like, I went like eight or nine years with that. And then I went to doctors, I went to physical therapist, I went to orthopedics.

She was like, I went to chiropractors and they either said, we don't know what's right. Oh, there's nothing wrong. You're making it up. So she's like, I want another nine years. So like basically a total of almost 20 years in [00:03:00] pain and she was just getting worse and worse and worse. And then she meets this physical therapist through referrals at her church, Dr.

David, and she ends up through another mutual friend. Booking as meeting that initial interview, they have that consultation, they meet five or six more times over the next three weeks. And she goes from near excruciating pain where it's debilitating her, where she can't work. She can't live. She can't just be the way God made her to be.

Tooshie meets Dr. Dave goes through his program. They work together for just three weeks and now she's running again. Working full time has no pain. It's freaking incredible. And she's like, I thank God for Dr. Dave. She had no idea he was on my show. I had no idea about her story, [00:04:00] but this is Dr. Dave. This is his story.

These are his tips and process that not only for physical can help you grow, but listen to the content that God used in his life. It really is remarkable and it'll help us all grow. So ladies and gentlemen, at this time, I am super proud. Happy to bring you the Dr. David harvest story.

this is David Pascoe wound again, and I'm sorry I interrupted our flow, but I made a mistake and I forgot something. That's going to benefit you. Number one, the mistake in the intro, I said the university of Philadelphia. I'm a goofball. It's the university of Pittsburgh. So university of Pittsburgh is where Dr.

Dave got his doctorate. And that is one of the greatest schools for [00:05:00] physical therapy in the U S and the world. So the university of Pittsburgh, my sincere apologies. Second, I got you all excited about this episode. You should be excited for this episode, and if you love the episode and feel God leading you at the end of the year, Dr.

Dave has a special offer for you as part of a remarkable community to get your life kick-started and headed back to full. All right. I love you. Sorry for the mistakes. Enjoy this remarkable episode.

PART 4 David Harvitz Full Healing from Physical Injuries Abandonment and the Pains of Our Past: [00:05:31] Hey, Dave, how are you today, brother? I'm good. How about yourself? I'm great, man. I'm looking forward to our episode. We we're sitting here on Memorial day and it may release probably about eight weeks out from today, but you and I are enjoying a beautiful Memorial day and we are getting to honor the people who have fallen for our country and our lives.

And then on top of it, we live in beautiful Florida, right? You're right in Pensacola with me, correct. That's [00:06:00] right. Yeah. So ladies and gentlemen, I know you're from all around the world and I get referred to Dr. Dave by one of our other remarkable guests, Jean Valentino. And it just happens. He's also in Pensacola, Florida, we've never met.

So this is actually a great opportunity where Dave and I are going to be friends. You and Dave get to be friends and we all get to learn and grow together. So the wonderful thing about our episodes is this is Dave story. This is how God led his life, but these are evergreen episodes. So if you go back to episode, one of the podcasts all the way through today and any episodes we have in the future, you just pick either the topic or the guests or wherever God leads you.

They're not time specific. So it doesn't matter if it's Memorial day, Christmas, Easter, Canadian, boxing day, it's all a good day. Right. But Dave, at this time, What's your story, man. Tell us about, you know, where were you, where did your originate, you know, where to God birth you, [00:07:00] what's your story? How did you develop and become the man you are today?

So at this time, and please share, all right, I've actually born in pencil in Philadelphia. I live here in Pensacola now, but I've lived over the United States for a number of years, lots of places. And but I spent the first 18 years growing up in upper Darby. Which is in Pennsylvania, right outside of Philadelphia.

So technically west Philadelphia, born and raised. And that's for those of you, not America, that's a fresh prince of Bel air reference. Oh yeah. Big fan grew up in that era too. So and I grew up in a family I'm the oldest of four and none, a very particularly religious family. My dad's side was a hundred percent Ashkenazi Jew and my mother's side was Catholic.

And so technically I was raised Catholic but that never [00:08:00] really sat well with me personally. There's nothing necessarily wrong with Cathol Catholicism. I don't want to offend anybody, but it wasn't, it didn't resonate with me very much. And so I never really grew up in a very religious manner. Never really grew up feeling as though God was a part of my life.

And in the meantime one of the more significant stories of my childhood is that my parents were divorced when I was at middles. And I think that was much harder on my siblings than it was for me. And in fact, I, I was actually quite happy about it. There was lots of strife in my home growing up and most people wouldn't recognize this about me now.

But I grew up on food stamps single mother home. My dad was absent. There was drugs, alcohol crime, all around me. And one of the [00:09:00] things that we'd love to highlight for your listeners is the way that God navigated that for me, despite the fact that I didn't have a relationship with him at the time I look back at some of the wise decisions I made as an 11 year old, a 12 year old, 13 year old.

And I realized that even that, that wisdom was not in me necessarily, but I was guided by a spirit of a God that I would come to know. And I, I just, I look back and I kind of Marvel at it. And so I. Generally struggled a lot in middle school with relationships and just the, the typical middle school stuff.

But then you add on the divorce of my FA divorce of my, my parents and the, the difficulties that came along with that with my siblings. And it was a very troubling childhood for most people. And how many siblings did you have? I had [00:10:00] three. I had three siblings all. And so I was the oldest of four.

And they, that was, I kinda took on a role of, of the father in the household. You know, my mother would come in and say, Hey, David, get your brother to do this, you know, or, you know, cause they won't listen or whatever it was. And it's not that to say that I wasn't, I was the goody two shoe either. I felt like we all had our struggles without a very strong male leader in my home.

And I feel like that shaped my family quite a bit. Yeah, absolutely. And then I don't want to be jumping ahead because this may be part of the story, but when you have a father figure gone, that's huge and you know, want to see in his tricks as he wants to break the home. Because if he breaks the home, he breaks the church, he breaks the community, he breaks a state, the country, the world, and it starts with us.

So when you say [00:11:00] us, you, are you referring, are you referring to the. No, it's every individual on the planet. It starts inside of us. But then as the man with us in the home, what people see every day and they take for granted, they get callous is when the father figures going us as men, in that case, it's super impacting to the children and families.

And if you look at federal prisons, it's like 90 plus percent grew up without a father in the home. So it really guides our moral compass and our confidence. So one of the questions I have, and I don't want to jump ahead if this is part of your story, but how did you heal from the abandonment of your father?

Is that something you're still dealing with? Is that something you feel like you've overcome? Because a lot of us grew up without a dad or a father in the home. So how did you deal with that? You know that's a really, really good question. I, I don't, [00:12:00] if I had to really put my thumb on it is I grew up not expecting too much from my father.

And so when he left, he, in fact there were, if anything, I may have saw him more after the divorce. Because now there's like a scheduled time, you know, where he's around as opposed to him now, my father was, is a, is a good man from the world's perspective. He was a very loving person. I, I think that I don't want to dishonor him or my mother for that matter in, in our conversation, I will say this my father, wasn't a very wise person and he wasn't someone I always looked up to that was from, from a very early age.

So when my family, when my father left there, there wasn't much of a wound that I felt like I needed to heal from. If anything, there was a bit of a callousness and, and maybe that's what [00:13:00] I've had to dealt with is softening that callous in relationships, more so than trying to heal from brokenness from the abandonment.

So I feel like you've accomplished that at this point where you have healing. Are you still struggling with it? I would say there's still a process that needs to happen for me. My, my wife and I were married in 20, 20, 20 12. And so we're, we're kind of, you know, nine years out right now. We're going to be celebrating eight.

Congratulations. Thank you. And since you're in Pensacola global grill Glade, great place to celebrate. Very good. I'll I'll keep that up in my mind. Man, best, best Philemon Yon in town. You can cut it with a backup. That's awesome. So you knew, you knew where I was a steak guy, so we're good. We have a lot of similarities.

I feel you want us to like red meat, so, oh, absolutely. [00:14:00] Yeah, so it was funny. God saw fit to, to pair me with somebody in my wife. Who's a very empathetic person, a very, not like don't take this the wrong way. Not in an emotional wreck, but someone who feels a lot, you know, and meanwhile, I'm Dallas. And most of that, I'm very, you know, level, you know, if I'm, if I'm real happy, I'm here.

If I'm real sad, I'm here. Most people are probably like this though. You know, you, you won't. I do wear my emotions on my sleeve. You'll know what I'm thinking and feeling, but the highs are not, not all that high, the lows aren't too low. But I think that that's gotten better with just the mere fact of being married to my wife.

I think that's how that healing is coming through. I've definitely softened the callouses quite a bit. And then we, we have four kids right now. And so I think in this, the same process is going through with them. I'm [00:15:00] learning to interact with them. In a way that is

at the very least noticing their emotions and knowing that they don't know how to deal with them. And it's my job to actually teach them. Meanwhile, I've never really had to deal with very strong emotions in either way. And that's been a learning experience. It's one thing to, to, to reflect inside. It's another thing for your reflection to be pushing and looking at you straight in the face, through the, through your daughter's eyes or your wife's eyes.

And I think that that is actually been more impactful to me than anything else. Yeah. Kind of forces you to express what you're thinking and kind of search what you're thinking. So, yeah. So go back to the ways that you have healed towards your father. Like you said, the callousness, what are some practical ways?

The listeners cause like I grew up in a home without my dad. [00:16:00] He told my mom get an abortion. They weren't married. Then once she didn't get an abortion, he just wasn't around. Okay. Now he's at like you and he's actually a great guy. It just, him and my mom didn't get along and his solution was boom. We're just not going to deal with anything as that part of life we're moving on.

So I didn't even talk to him until my twenties, but what were the things that you've done or doing to kind of on, you know, take off those layers of callous and have a heart towards him, a loving. Well, there is still a lot of distance between me and my family. I feel like I've reached out on a number of occasions.

And so the healing that has taken place has taken place. I think on my side, I think in a lot of ways, as you learn about my story, you'll understand it more. I'm a little intimidating to my family. I've got a very strong personality. I'm a, I'm an alpha, I'm a type a, I'm a go getter. And that's kinda how God designed [00:17:00] me.

And I think that personality is intimidating to those that I grew up with in my family. And even with my, my father I know back in when I was younger God did a wonderful thing. And, and what he did was he, he knew that I needed a father figure. He knew I needed mentors. I was always the kid that I was, I was very annoying.

I was, I did not have social graces. I had, I, you know, I had rough edges, big time, rough edges, but the heart was always there to do what was right. And I think eventually God knew that. And so he did bring, so in ninth grade I got involved in young life. And, and it's not as big around, down here in, in the south.

But young life is a. High school ministry where they have some camps around the country we go to and I got involved in that ministry [00:18:00] through some friends, from all my track team. And through that ministry, I came to know Christ at the end of my ninth grade year. And it's interesting. I went to a young life camp for a week.

I I got home for a week and then I went to Disney world. Now this is from Pennsylvania. So it's a big deal. And you know, we, we traveled down there. I went down there, my family even allowed my girlfriend to come with us. And so I had a week in Disney world with my girlfriend in high school. And I still say to this day that that young life week was so much better, so much more fun than Disney world.

And I think the reason why is I was touched, I, God touched me that week. And I wouldn't say I became a Christian that week. I'm I'll, I'll test the waters. I'm not going to jump right in. I'm very, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll keep a distance for a little while, while I kind of chew the cud [00:19:00] as it were. And and you know, I would say over the course of two years, I became a Christian and I never had that one moment where I was like, that's when I became a Christian and I didn't have that moment where I prayed the prayer.

But I do know, like by the time I was a junior, I was living as a Christian and, and bothered by things that I was bothered by my sin. And I, and I worked through the scriptures to learn more about who God was and whatnot. Over those, those couple of years, And during that time, when I became, got involved in young life I was introduced to a young couple at the time.

And their name was Stephanie and Dave and God used them and profound ways to mentor me. And a lot of the mentorship actually came from working under Stephanie. She had like a house flipping business and I [00:20:00] did odd jobs for her. And she would, we'd be sitting there painting the ceiling or painting the walls and she'd be like, so tell me about Jesus.

What do you think about him? And just, she grilled me and in a good way, very loving way. And there were times where she's like, oh yeah, you'll have to dump that girlfriend. And she'll, y'all, you'll have to do this and you'll have to do that. And one day, and I'm like, and I'd fight her with, I'm like, no way, Steph, you don't know what you're talking about.

And but she was very she was what God, I mean, she was what God used in a lot of ways. Her husband, David has served as a, a strong male role model for me, most of my life. I'm still friends with them today. They are the, the official godparents of my daughter who I always call Stephan Dave, my godparents, they, they weren't official.

But that's, you've got put in my FA as part of my family. So at the same time that I was doing. My family was broken apart [00:21:00] within a year, God restored a new Christ family for me. And through Stephanie and Dave and a couple of friends from, from high school that were also believers and it really, it radically shaped my high school life.

So number one, God replaced father figures for me. And that's something that on one hand, God just lays in your lap. But at the same time, if I'm going to encourage others that are dealing with brokenness from, from, you know, an empty father, a fatherless home, the one thing I would say is you do need to search it out a bit.

I wasn't w once I had one, Stephanie brought me into her circle. I sought out time with Dave. I, I was like, Hey, I want to spend time with Dave. And I would ask him questions too, like, Hey, what's it look like to be a man this way or that way? You know, because I didn't know. I always told people growing up that [00:22:00] I always, I always knew what not to do.

I just didn't know necessarily what I should do or how to do it. And so I needed that guidance and I needed that mentorship, and I don't think anyone would ever be. I, if anything, people are gonna be honored by you searching the mountain saying you're an honorable man that I see walks with Christ. Can you, can you meet with me on a regular basis to, to just mentor me.

One of that might be one of the biggest honors someone ever received. If someone ever asked me to do that, I would be honored. And I know David, I bet you feel it would feel the same way. The reality is is that we, you know, we sing, we seem to think that we're going to be inconveniencing others, but if someone is truly an honorable person that is worth listening to, they're going to want to pour out to you because they're going to have the mind of Peter or the mind of Paul to pour out to Timothy or so, and like yourself, like that's the whole, that's the whole point of discipleship.

And so Stephanie and Dave [00:23:00] definitely discipled me, not only in the, in, in scripture and in what God, what kind of relationship we can have with God but in life. And that was where I needed a lot of work. I, I was at a lot of work. I was in a bad way in terms of my social graces and how to treat others and what it looked like to love.

I didn't have a concept or, or anything to compare it to. And I think having those mentors in my life really helped when I went to college, God did the same thing and I had some extra distance between Dave and Steph, but I received a new mentor in college and another mentor in in grad school.

And even now it's funny how it's it kind of circles back? Cause now Dave and Steph are a bigger part of my life, again, as I'm an adult an older than I was in college. [00:24:00] And you know, I've always had someone to look up to and ask questions of. And I think that is a huge, huge part of how God has been able to restore a lot of the things that I lacked because I didn't have a father.

Yeah. And for those who don't know, mentorship, discipleship, you know, big brother, big sister programs, all of these terms and all of these, you know, organizations that put young men with older men who are strong and have character it's to fill the absence of what we should have in the home naturally with the father.

And what Dave is explaining is he along his journey, even though the father was removed earthly father, the heavenly father was always there. And in each phase, God brought you a mentor, a man to fill that [00:25:00] gap. Was there something you did to look for this man or did God just intervene a little bit of both?

You can take a horse to the trough, but you can't make them. You know, and I think there's a couple other, there's a couple other statements like that I can make. God put people on my, in my path and I took that opportunity. And I think it's really important for you to give God that glory, but it's also equally important for me to recognize that if I did, if I chose not to do it or not to say something or not to ask that question, I wouldn't have had that.

It's real. I mean, that's, and that's the thing about mentorship. Everyone should have a mentor if you want to. I mean, if we're going to talk about being successful in life or me being six and define success, let me just be very clear. There's lots of ways to define success [00:26:00] as a Christian. Number one, success obedience.

If I'm obedient today, I was successful. And of course, that's going to be to God. If I'm obedient to God, that's a successful day. That's a successful month. That's a successful year. Now that will be, and this is going to percolate all kinds of good blessings to God. I mean, he says that destiny in this, and if you, if you give to my store houses, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make your storehouse overflow.

I mean, that's one of the only times God actually asks us to test. It is in the, in the tie, the offering, for example but at the same time, but then the Bible is very specific about saying all the money in the world is not as good as wisdom, you know? And so when, when it comes down to what is, what is successful in my mind is to be obedient to the word, be obedient to God's commands, be obedient.

Now my perfect, no, I sent all [00:27:00] day. I do it all the time, but I'm also repenting. And then I move on. I don't live in shame and that's something maybe we can touch on because I think a lot of people get all hung up on trying to be obedient and then they fail and then they have that burden of shame. I would say, it's the enemy putting that burden of shame on you because he's the accuser of the brethren and we as Christian.

We're were made clean through that blood of Christ. And so we get the best of both worlds, unfortunately, in, in the, in the earth here, we the worldly way of going about it is when you do good, you should feel happy when you do bad, you should feel bad. The way the Christian world should look is when we, when we do well and we S are successful in our obedience.

We get blessing, we get godly, we get blessing from like the riches in heaven. We get the blessing of, of the natural outcome of God's direction. [00:28:00] And then we get the actual extra blessing. Oh, he obeyed, I'm going to give him a good thing, you know, and it could be lots of, I mean, we can easily go to the material, but that's where our, that's where our minds go.

But I would say there's, there's just as much spiritual blessing in that wisdom blessing in that. Then it is material that's inconsequential in my mind. I am not, although material blessing is good and comfortable. That should probably in my mind, it should be lower on the totem pole of the desire of the, the, the treasures in heaven that we store up in our obedience and the the ability to Store up the, the blessing that God has for us in other avenues.

I say a lot to say if, if you're going through being successful throughout life, the first thing that has to happen is you [00:29:00] need to be obedient. And I say all that to say, well, how do you become obedient to God? Well, someone has to teach you. And I think that that's the whole point of discipleship.

Jesus, didn't show up on the scene and say, okay, Peter, this is how you do it, you know, and then they'll go do it. He walked with them for years and demonstrated it. And I think that, you know, whether you want to call it a mentor is somebody who disciples you, you know, is really what we should be. You know the terms that we should be thinking of.

And I think it's important that if it wasn't for God putting in place for me, people to disciple me, I would not be successful in, in all the avenues. And obviously first and foremost, the ability to, to honor him with my obedience on hopefully regular more regular basis as the days go on. Yeah. And [00:30:00] you've given a lot of wisdom, Dave, and a lot you've just unpacked.

So if you're listening, go back and maybe listen again to what Dave just said, because I'm just going to go through some of the points that I think we should at least hit on to make sure we picked up on, but you mentioned prosperity and blessing, and you talked about how, you know, doing the right thing and obedience, God will bless.

He will 100%. It may not be on our timetable though. So keep that. Not talking to you, listen to the audience, Dave, and I don't want us to take anything for granted. God always is true. God always is real. And most of the time we're going to see we reap what we sow in this life, but there's always attorney.

And like our slogan says, don't just listen, but do and repeat for life. So you can have a great life in this world and in eternity, but there's people in the Bible who went 30 years before they saw the prosperity, but it came and then there's people who are going to see it. You [00:31:00] know, you look at people who went through the Holocaust, man.

They died, but if they were faithful to God, to then they're having an attorney. Of blessing. So I just don't want you to be like, cause I've got down on it, Dave, I'm sure you have to, you're like, man, I'm doing the right thing, but why are bad things happening right now? You know, it's interesting. You mentioned that, you know, I don't know where people are spiritually.

I'm just going to speak where I come from in my, my walk. But when I find that I'm doing the right things and I'm, I'm honoring God with my actions and and obeying that's what, I'm the most dangerous to Satan. Yeah. And that's when he's going to attack you, he's going to attack you. And that's the thing.

Listen, I, I very much believe in spiritual warfare, if you don't as a Christian, I think you are ignoring a large part of a battle that's been raging for, for forever since the beginning of time and right from the get-go. I mean, Satan's just tempting, tempting, tempting. [00:32:00] And he's the like, again, like I said earlier, he is the accuser of the brethren.

When you have shame and you were self doubt when you are, when you're producing fruit, that is not good. You're believing lies in one way or another. And when you are having outcomes in life, like, listen, the last two years of my life have been probably the hardest two years of my life yet. I've also been.

The most faithful to God in the last two years of my life. And I think that, you know, on one hand, you know, God's not going to give you or ask of you more than you can handle, but at the same time, when you are doing the job thing and you're killing it, you're doing what you're supposed to be doing.

You're faithful to God. Satan's going to be like, he's, you're, you're up on the radar now, Satan, you know, Satan's not going to attack you if you're lukewarm. And I think the faithful in our, in our, in, in [00:33:00] Christianity, around the world, we need to be sensitive to that. We need to recognize that when we are doing ministry, when we're, when we're loving on others, when we're gosh, these last few weeks there's th there's these two couples that my wife and I have been administering to like insane attack, like random, random stuff.

I'm a physical therapist. We can get to that at some point, my back, my, my wife's back. She couldn't even stand up straight, you know? And I'm like, what the heck? And I'm looking at her like, how are we going to handle this? Cause we're supposed to be going out with this couple, you know, it's insane. Stuff like that when it happens, it's gonna, it's all, it's all part of that spiritual warfare that we're a part of.

Yeah. And I agree completely in our frame of reference, just, you know, Dave, we have listeners from over 81 countries. The nucleus is probably conservative Christians, [00:34:00] but we have people who are all sorts of nationalities, all sorts of worldviews and where our community kind of has that commonality is that we're all looking to grow.

So Dave and I both believe in God of the Bible, we believe in not just the old Testament, but the new Testament. And what Dave's talking about is when Satan fell from heaven, he brought a third of the angels with him and fallen angel as a demon. So the only difference between an angel and a demon is the choice that they choose to follow God or say it.

And same, it only has two objectives. One to keep people from trusting Christ and knowing the truth. And to like Dave said, okay, they trusted Christ maybe with our life, but he's going to ruin their life and ruin their testimony and break them down. And he's going to sift them like wheat. So nobody [00:35:00] listens to them about God.

And so they're completely useless as far as the kingdom is concerned. So that's what Dave and I are referring to if you're on a different frame of reference. But Dave, I do want you to, on that note, go back to, you said when you were at. Young life. That's where you came to know Christ, but then you also said, you know, the moment of salvation maybe was down the road, explain what you meant by coming to know Christ, because to us that's a common term, but to our listeners in Ghana or our listeners in India, or even England, it, they might not know what the heck you're talking about.

So talk about coming to know Christ and what that means. Yeah. So, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll start with a story. The way that they, they camp at young life star did it is they, they spent like four or five days in the evenings talk, giving us a talk, you know, saying, Hey, you know, you're sinful, what are you going to do about it?

You know? And they kind of, they hashed that out it quite a bit. And then the, the second to last night, they said, listen, [00:36:00] and they've, they've been building up to this, so it didn't just come out of nowhere. And they were, we were softened to the idea and they said, listen you're sinful, raise your hand if you're perfect and no one raised their hand.

They're okay. We get it. So what can you do about it? And we're all like, well, we can just do better. And, you know, we can, you know, sort of like a balancing of the scales was a very common thing that we all kind of agreed on and, and the, the person giving the talks. So that's hogwash, you know, that's, that's terrible.

It's a terrible idea because now you've got to sit there and keep track and we're all like, oh yeah, that's true. And he's like, let me pose this to you. You can't do a darn thing about it, period. And he lifted that. And I was, I was really upset. I, you know, you want to see Dave heated. That was Dave. He did at the time.

And I was, I was mad cause I'm like, who do you, who are you to say, I can't do something about this. And I, and at this point, you know, this is, you know, I was 13 or so. And [00:37:00] at the time I had not, this, obviously I've not heard the gospel I grew up and this is why, you know the Catholic community that I grew up in and I'm sure this is not true around the world necessarily.

But the Catholic group that I grew up in didn't adequately explain to me the gospel because I was genuinely hurt and offended that these people are telling me that I could do anything about my salvation or anything about my sin. And you know, the last night was, you know, they presented the gospel saying, well, good, I'm glad you don't have, I'm glad that you're unable to do anything because God already did for you.

Let me show you how, and then they present the gospel, you know, which is your saying. Christ knew it came down, lived as a man and God, he lived the perfect life as a replacement and a Toman for your sin and [00:38:00] very in a, in a very mirrored image, a very you know, all the old testaments, foreshadowing Christ, any, any listeners that are Jewish, ah, listen, I half my family's Jewish and, you know, I had the honor to bring my, my 100% Ashkenazi Jew, grandmother to Christ years ago.

And she's been going to S she's been going to a messianic synagogue you know, until the, the day that she passed. And she, if anyone doesn't understand that that old Testament is just a foreshadow in Christ through and through I really encourage you to read it. It is, it's just littered with it.

And and so, you know, the gospel is saying, okay, we're going to take that atonement that we've been using as just I guess the, in Hebrews the writer explains how the, [00:39:00] the, the sacrificial practices were, were just a, I think the word is it, it held off the, the wrath of God. It just postponed it, it put it off.

It was never something to, as a complete You know saving practice. Whereas when Jesus came, he was the saving practice. And so he dies for our sin. And now we can live in freedom from the law, not to say that we don't obey the law in a lot of ways that that Christ kind of put him, he said, love, love yourself, love God love one another, like do these things.

And then all the law falls under that. And so there's things that we're supposed to do. However, we don't do it out of, out of a need to earn our salvation. But as a way of, as a way of honoring him again through our obedience, [00:40:00] hopefully succeeding in that. So that gospel was explained and I was, I was still pretty.

I was like, okay, I get it now. You're just saying, I just need to say yes to Jesus. That makes sense. I've heard that before. And that night I my young life leader, his name was Ryan and he was like a law student and I was grilling him with questions and it may seem silly to someone else, maybe not, but I was asking questions like, well, why wasn't Jesus a girl?

Why would, why would, why did he have to go at this time? What about the people? And, you know, China that never heard of them, you know, like all these. Questions just to get at them is really, you know, not necessarily like in, with malicious intent, but more of like, well, tell me this, tell me that all these stupid questions and some of them were legit and some of them were just kind of playing with them.

But most of them, you [00:41:00] really were like trying to figure out what's real and what's fake. And I remember thinking to myself, okay, I'm not disbelieving anything the Bible says, but what about dinosaurs? What about aliens? What about this? And if someone can answer to you from the Bible, you're in good company cover to cover, not manipulating one verse out of context, but if they're just speaking based on, oh, that sounds good.

Or their opinion, you need to kick that person to the curb, right? Yeah. And well, fortunately my, my counselor the leader there, Ryan, you know, he kinda just stopped because he knew where I was going with all this. He goes, Dave, listen, I'm not going to be able to answer all your questions, but God will give it some time and dedicate some time to it.

And the questions that you have, you'll either have two results. One he'll answer it for you or two you'll come to realize it doesn't matter. And from that point on, I said, I'll give it some time and, you know, over [00:42:00] the course of the next year you know, I went to Bible study, I learned it. I studied and really dug into it.

And I think there were a couple specific things that really played a key role. I'm a very analytical logical person. You are not going to win me over with emotion. And I explained that earlier, I don't, I'm not, I'm not, I don't fluctuate too much, but what you will win me over with is some, some logic, some history, history some personal accounts.

And so I know the case for Christ was written about that time. Maybe a little before, I know it probably was a few years prior to this, but that really played a key role in me being convinced that I'm like, okay, Christianity essentially does hinge on whether or not Jesus rose from the dead.

[00:43:00] And it just so happens. We have absolutely the most historical evidence possible of that actually happening, you know? And, and so I'm like, so, so at that point, I think at some point I realized these 12, well, 11 disciples acted as have he rose from the dead for the rest of their lives, which some were short and some are longer, but they all were.

And it didn't change. And then Paul, which is, I think in my opinion, the greatest testimony of all who was a fare to see a farracies literally in line to be the high priest. Like he's there, he, I mean, it's top tier. I mean, it's kind of like, I mean, lots of get too political America here, but it's kind of like Joe Biden turned around and saying I'm Republican and then acting like it.

That's what happened with Paul. Paul was like the man and was going to be like, he's out there actively killing and persecuting [00:44:00] Christians and then wrote a Damascus. He changes completely. And he goes completely on fire for God. And I'm like, listen, he had everything to lose. There. There's no logical reason that he, that man could possibly ever decide, you know what, I'm going to go be a Christian, the same people that have been persecuting for the last decade or the last five years, whatever it was, whatever it was and turn around and become the, the main author of the new Testament.

Yeah. And if you're again not familiar with, there's so much that Dave and I are talking about that you're a part of right now, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. And Dave and I are spending a lot of time talking about this, but there's so much more. So if you have any questions about what Dave and I are talking about, there'll be links in the show notes to me, to Dave, reach out to.

And not only will we try to answer your questions, but we'll try to connect you with someone in your area who can sit down with you, [00:45:00] because like Dave's talked about so eloquently about whether you call it mentoring or discipleship or whatever term you use, that's a biblical model to be discipled and grow and to be discipling someone who you're helping grow.

And there's a balance like you don't, like you were saying, it was beautiful. It took years for Jesus to disciple the apostles. Right? Then they were disciples and they became apostles. It wasn't like, oh, I'm going to have three Bible studies with you. And you're good to go. And sometimes people just jump into, oh, I got to disciple people, but they don't even know what they're doing yet.

Now there's a balance. Again, I remember the guy who discipled me that God used to change my life. Tony Stefanini. He wasn't the man without fault or flaw. None of us are, but he took the time to come meet with a kid two, sometimes three times a week. Answer my questions like Dave had with his friends, Stephanie and also David.

We had a lot of David's here today. We do. [00:46:00] And they changed his life because it's just a relationship it's just spending time together. And again, Dave and I are very familiar with religion and Christianity and God. But if you're non you're hearing all these terms, don't worry about it. Just take it.

Step-by-step decently in order, the Bible is the book of writing. That we have, thankfully it's recorded and it's proven, and it's historical truth, not just stories, but historical truth. Like the Smithsonian. I think they've used it like 56 times for explorations and all 56 times they found exactly what they were looking for based on the Bible.

So it's not like these are just written stories like David and Goliath is just, you know, it was like a comic book. No, it was real. So when you're looking at the old Testament that's before Jesus new testaments, after old Testament, like Dave said is all of the stories and foundation and the law and it sets the foundation.

But then the new [00:47:00] Testament, it talks about the atonement and the freedom we have through Christ and the salvation and how now the law, we don't have to work tirelessly to try to be without sin because that's impossible. But through Christ we have that. And now the new Testament kind of explains where we are today and gives us that freedom where we don't have to serve God, but we want to serve God.

So there's just so many things you're talking about Dave, and like from biblical discipleship and talking about, you know, religion verse relationship, you know, you can go to church every day, but that doesn't mean anything's going to change in your life. The relationship you have personally with God is what Dave's talking.

That's what's special. That's what's life changing. That's what gives you that peace and joy, even in the darkest hour. And if you're going to a church and you see a bunch of people who are one way for two hours on Sunday morning or Wednesday night, and they're a completely different [00:48:00] person outside of that building, that's not a real Christian Christian means to be Christ-like.

There's nobody in the Bible that calls himself a Christian. I think wasn't an acts. It says they were first called Christians in Antioch. So the people in Antioch saw the depo disciples and they said, wow, those people act like Christ. So just remember, there's a lot of stuff you grew up a certain way. I grew up a certain way.

Dave grew up a certain way, but when you're hearing all this always go back to the Bible is what you're being told, lining up with scripture. And then when you have those questions, like Dave had, he went to his young life counselor and he was asking these questions and where the young life counselor pointed back to the Bible, pointing them back to God.

That's what you need to be looking for so you can grow. So, Dave, what we're talking about is the most important thing in the world, but I don't want to distract from your story that ties all this together. So anything you want to say that we've missed to this point, absolutely [00:49:00] filling anything you want to continue with this conversation, keep going, but if you're done and you think we've covered that adequately, pick up with your story and keep going with how God led your life.

Well, I think high school is a really interesting time. So at the time I was I dated for, for American high schooler dating someone for two and a half years is a pretty long time. I had that that's long for marriage these days too, but yeah, unfortunately it can be. And so I was in a pretty serious relationship with, with that, with that woman and, and she, she and I unfortunately grew apart, but she didn't change.

It was me. And I think that was the big difference is that if it wasn't for Christ, I probably would've married her right out of high school. And thankfully I didn't, there's a lot of reasons why that would have been very bad. [00:50:00] But in high school I went through a lot of changes. I was a pretty competitive runner.

I was a you know, again, still dealing, trying to be the father figure of my house. I obviously was dating my girlfriend at the time and still trying to be some kind of a decent student. I, no one in my family has ever graduated college. And so I was the first and was. You know, it was kind of just, I knew that's what I was going to do.

I was going to go to college and I was going to have a career. And the main reason why is I looked around and I saw you know, the food stamps I sold my, well, my mom, God bless her. She worked for part-time jobs to provide for me and my three other siblings. So, I mean, she was a single mother of four and I was I'm 10 years older than my, my youngest sister.

So at the time when I [00:51:00] was 13 years old, my sister was just three, you know, I mean, that's a big span. And so I was definitely helping out a lot. Yeah. Yeah, no, for someone who doesn't have kids, when you have one kid and two parents that keeps you going, when you get to the two on two ratio, That's challenging.

And then when you start getting out numbered, man, it's almost impossible to be a single mom to do that. Or a single dad. It just takes a lot of love and a lot of effort. So I can your mom give her props, man? Yeah. And you know there's definitely areas where both of my parents, myself, we all could have done better.

I obviously, I think what made me different though, like, so if you were to look at my, my family at the time I was, I was in high school. I had a S a S my brother was in middle school and then one other brother in grade school. And then my [00:52:00] sister who was kind of just coming into, you know, pre-K area.

And what was really frustrating was is that I lived, you know, up until that point, all my siblings, we all lived the same way. What started to change though, was that Christ got ahold of me. And if we all were kind of headed down this certain path, all of a sudden, I just started veering off to the side, like almost a complete U-turn.

And again, not to, I can't, I can't necessarily explain to you where I've come from without really explaining a little bit. My siblings stories, all three of them have been in jail one time or. They've all had addiction and drug problems and they all have broken relationships or children out of wedlock one way or another.

[00:53:00] And I wanted to make this very clear. I don't bring that up saying, look how awesome I am. What I do want to say is this, the result that I've had in my life, which is far more blessed than, than them. There's only one difference. Jesus period. There's no, you don't get wisdom on your own. You don't just, you're not just, you're just not just a smart person.

If you ask for it, God will give you an abundance asking you shall receive. And that's Matthew right there. The reality is when I was younger, I asked for that wisdom. I said, God, give me wisdom. And that's what he did. He gave me wisdom and he gave me wisdom through mentors and gave me wisdom through the Bible.

And, and then, and then. I got it implemented. I can't, you know you can't just say, Hey, I want these things. And you asked for wisdom will, what will you do is when you learn wisdom, what you end up doing is delaying pleasure. Like that's a [00:54:00] very strong characteristic of someone who is wise. They D they actually go ahead and forego short term, quick pleasure for long-term profound pleasure.

And that's something that I was able to accomplish, but I only able was able to accomplish it because of, of the, of what Jesus was able to do in my heart. And so when you see the contrast between maybe myself versus the rest of my family don't look and say, look, Dave did good. And Dave accomplished and, and look, Dave is a remarkable person.

I'm just a dude who is remarkable because of Jesus. There's a difference. Oh, huge difference. And I totally get where you're coming from. You're basically not trying to bash your brothers and sisters, but what you're seeing is the statistical average for someone who grew up like you did is disaster. Yes.

[00:55:00] And the difference for me in you is we have, we've trusted Jesus at a young age. And he's literally changed our lives, our thinking, our hearts, our desires, and it's not bad. It's good. It's so good. And like you said, short-term loss for long-term gain, looking back it's like there was actually no loss. I mean, back then, certain things seemed like a huge sacrifice and now it's like, oh, thank you, Lord, that you guided me that way.

Right, right. And that's how, and then again, you, you, so, so you understand where my, where my family was at the time. And then you see what's Dave doing in high school. Dave is somehow keeping it together with, with his, his academics and his is excelling in, in my track career. And at the same time, I'm not doing the best thing in this relationship with my girlfriend.

And, you know, we start drifting apart and eventually I just felt like God was saying, you just need to move on. You gotta do that. And that was a pretty [00:56:00] rough time. I had a death in the family about the same time that I decided to move on from that relationship. I actually developed mano or it's like it's a severe fatigue.

You know, Mano O mano. Okay. I thought you were saying you had CMV, which is the advanced model. Okay. Sorry. I had that too. Yeah, no, it was, it was just a, it was mild enough for, it took me out of my track season for awhile, which was, you know, when the, the, you know, the captain of the track team and I'm sitting there running slower than, than the girl's team.

There's something wrong. And so finally we got my blood tested and, you know, I was, I had mono and so that took me out a while. You know, so there was a lot of hardship that came that beginning of my, my senior year of high school. And [00:57:00] but you know, it was, I think the hardship was God's way of, of getting rid of some things.

So for example, that relationship. Number two, God saw my pride in my, in my track career and he's like, that's gotta go. And, you know, there's, there's these, these things that God said, listen, I need to purge some of these things out of your life so that when you go to college, there's, there's a renewed mind.

There's a renewed soul there that I'm sending because you, you have another chapter. And I think that that was that was key. So how you school ended? Pretty well. I, I actually after I graduated high school in the Philadelphia area, I, I had it with my family. I needed some distance between me and them for a number of reasons.

I would pour out, pour out, pour out, and it was [00:58:00] hard to get filled back up at that point. And so I went as far as I could while still, still staying in state, I went to the university of Pittsburgh. And it just so happened. They have a really good physical therapy program for me. And so I started there the right out of high school and what was really cool is that there was another organization similar to young life that it's called the CCO.

In fact, if some of your listeners here in America may have heard of the CCO recently they, or the news last year there was some, some racial scandal going on a little bit. It seems like everyone's getting thrown under the bus one way or another. I'm still very closely associated with the CCO now.

And I'll just take this moment to say this. I, I know personally one of my mentors is one of the regional directors of, of the CCO, which is the [00:59:00] coalition for Christian outreach. And and I asked him, okay, give me the low down because you know, my wife and I, we, we financially support them and I need to know like, what's going on.

And he was brutally honest. He said, you know, some of the stuff that came out, there's some truth to it. And at the same time, there's a ton of stuff that came out that is completely unfair. And just like the last year and a half, nobody really knows what is true and what is not which is why it's really important to be listening to what the holy spirit says to us.

Because unfortunately he can't believe the news very much. And like we discussed before everybody in every organization moving forward to better people's lives for Christ. Sans has got a big target on their back. Yes, [01:00:00] absolutely. And so, you know, I said all that say, you know, the, the CCO I think is an excellent organization.

We still we've decided my wife and I not to not to change anything we're doing with them and to weather the storm, because what they do is they minister to young people that go on college campuses. And if there was a single place in the world, that is one of the most hostile places for Christians, it's the American college scene.

It really, really is. And it's only been 15 years since I graduated. Or so, and, you know, it's, it's insane to think how much has changed. But there's a lot of struggles that people are going through on the college campus that need to be supported by, by the gospel. And so, yeah, and I agree in a lot of the, I taught at a college for three years and luckily I taught her Christian organization in the sense of like, you know, their religious beliefs and background, but I've gone to secular different [01:01:00] universities.

And the majority of the problem stems with the administration, they're a bunch of liberal, like horrible humans that have a terrible agenda, never worked a real day in their life. And they're sitting there telling people a bunch of lies and enjoying it. And then the students come out, absolutely confused and useless.

So people are people and there's good and bad and all good quote unquote, you know, bad. But these, these university teachers are just programmed these kids with lies and then they're coming out more confused than they went in. And that's just the mess. Well, you brought up the lies. It's like, well, who's the father of lies and Satan.

And you know, if you can control, you can control people from a young age. That's how you're going to, that's how you're going into to change America's culture, the way we were founded and the whole bit. But I will say this, you know, you mentioned these horrible people and I, and I, and I'm, I think I know you well enough to know that.

I'm going [01:02:00] to clarify something for you. I think you're going to, and we, we, we, and there's sometimes I personally need to be reminded of this, that we don't war against flesh and blood, right? These people have been deceived by the great deceiver by, by the father of lies. It's not, they are not our enemies, the liberals, or the people that you know, that we have to fight against first truth for, to fight against saying, Hey, look, this is, this is, this is capital T truth.

You know, they are just mere pawns in this again, this spiritual battle that's been raging forever. And so it it's, it's hard though, because they're coming after Christians in a lot of ways too. And so it's easy to get your fists ready to go and saying, all right, fine. If you want to fight, let's bring it because I've got facts and I've got logic, I've got the gospel.

I can do all these things. Meanwhile, what we should be looking at these people as, and say, listen, they've just been deceived and we need to win them over, which is what Paul [01:03:00] did. And it's harder. It's harder to do a lot of ways. No, and I agree a hundred percent with what you're saying, we need to have love.

And like, Jesus was the perfect model. Anytime somebody attacked Jesus. He took it. Anytime somebody attacked God, he didn't take it. He put his foot down. So it's like, that's what we need to model our lives. After. Like, if someone is speaking foolish, Yeah, you just take it. But when somebody speaks against God, you know, like, you know, everybody talks about when Jesus through the money table, changing tables over in the temple, but also who did he rap on more than anybody.

There was people that we today would call believers and unbelievers. He didn't really have an issue with either one of those. He came for the unbelievers, he knows them. The leavers are solid. He's there to help them grow, but who did Jesus wrath on the hypocrites, the scribes, the Pharisees, the [01:04:00] people who pretended to be good and they were bad.

Those are the people that blew his top, so to speak, but he never lost it. Never sinned. It was always in a godly way, but that's needs to be our model, you know, righteousness love, but also direct truth. You don't have to be a snowflake. Well that's and I think you made a good point there, you know is, you know, like what, who did he go after?

And you said, you know, like what did he do? He kind of didn't necessarily you know, go, go after people. And he didn't necessarily blow up when people went after him versus the father. But, and I was, I thought you were going somewhere else with this. Here's the one thing that is true too, though, is that he knew he never was concerned, but how I made people feel.

And I think that that's something that's really important is when truth, when truth meets a lie, there's going to be hurt. And, and so. It doesn't mean we can't speak truth and love and actually come alongside people, [01:05:00] disciple them and mentor them or help them and be compassionate for terrible situations.

But there's, there's a difference between that. And then either perpetuating lies or partnering with them or agreeing with lies. Cause that you're, I think in, in the spiritual world, I think we get in a lot of trouble when we're doing that. And so, you know, if I'm, if I'm trying to address some of the problems in our country, a lot of that has to do with how do we gently and sometimes forcefully, but as gentle and as kind as possible, say, Hey, look, this is wrong, you know?

And at the same time not be so concerned about how someone's feelings may be hurt because there's undoubtedly going to be offense when someone's lies, exposed to the light. Yeah. Yeah. I agree completely. But the people just because two [01:06:00] people don't agree either. Like I'm going to use me and you, if we don't agree on something, Dave, either, yeah.

Either I'm writing you're wrong. You're right. And I'm wrong or we're both wrong and we need to figure out what's true. Right. So it should be a journey as iron sharpens iron. So the man that countenance of a friend, but People today, if you don't agree with them, they cancel you. They complain. They like you hurt my feelings.

You offended me. Come on, man. Cut that out. Stop being so weak, stop being such a little whiner and be real. You're not going to grow. Like people say, never talk about politics or religion. Those are the two most important things is the way it is because you don't talk about it dummy. Yeah. And that's the thing too, is, is people are like, keep your religion out of my politics.

I'm like the reason why I have my politics, the way they are is because of my faith. So to our founding [01:07:00] fathers, despite what they want to change in the history books, listen. Yeah. So we could go on. So let's keep going with your story. Cause I love it. I don't work trending the same. And if you don't agree with me or Dave, write us, and then we'll try to tell you the truth or you can tell us the truth or we can both find the truth.

But man, I think history and reality and common sense will prove every time the Bible and the Bible is always there to prove truth and common sense. So there's never a flaw between them. Yeah. So in college I had the opportunity to be a part of that CCO ministry at my, at, at the university of Pittsburgh.

It's still thriving now. Very, very thankful of it. Essentially they would have Wednesday night meetings and Bible study and other night. So I was, I was really, by that point, ingrained in the church, I was, I was living it out, still had my struggles, but at the same time, like really growing. And I was the one that owned the track to become a physical therapist at the [01:08:00] time.

I kinda knew where I was going to go. Right after, before I graduated, I knew what I was wanting to do. And during this time one of the, and so talking about this is let's, let's pick up the conversation about the fatherlessness that I was a part of that I had to deal with when I was younger. One of the things that I came to realize is When I was about 20, I was like, man, I really don't know what it's like to be a Christian man.

You know, what does it look like to be a man of God? And there was an author that I read called miles Monroe. In fact, I think he passed away recently in the last few years. And he wrote a book called the power and purpose of, of men and then the power and purpose of women. In fact, I read that one too.

And what was really important to me was learning what it looks like to be a man, because I didn't have that, [01:09:00] that, that modeled for me. And so, you know, if you're asking me, well, Dave, what else did you do? Well, I looked like I found mentors. Well, what else did I do? No, I'm not much of a reader. To be honest, in fact, the only time you're going to hear me reading about something is when I really feel like I need to know something, I don't really read for pleasure too much.

But if I feel as though that there is an information gap between where I think I need to be and where I'm at, I'm going to fill that gap with a book or something. And maybe if I can, I'll get it from a, I'll get it from a documentary. Yeah. Audio books, documentaries, podcasts. It's a great way to consume media information.

It is. Oh, absolutely. And so what I did is I read that book and there was also another book. I think it was the, the fell fell Hahn who wrote, I think it was like Sherry. I might be misquoting it, but it was the, it was a book about the statistical differences between the male and female brain. And it [01:10:00] was fascinating sort of like kind of how men's brains work and how women's brains work.

Because again, I saw a gap in my understanding for You know what it looks like to have a healthy relationship. Again, I did not ever have that modeled for me. And then although my godparents were there again, it was sometimes rare. It was mostly rare for me to see the, both of the same time. And, you know, day to day relationship is a lot different than, you know, I go over your house every weekend, you know, it's, it's different.

And so I took the opportunity to really study these things. And I did this all at the same time where I studied abroad, and this is maybe where some of our international listeners will get a kick out of it. I, I got the chance to do a semester and see study abroad program where we sailed around the world on a cruise ship [01:11:00] and it's, and the cruise ship was adapted to be a college campus.

And I stopped in mostly third world countries and you know 10 different countries and got to experience culture, religion, food, economics politics. It was really, really, really cool. And the main thrust of the, the, the time abroad for me was assessing my culture, assisting others cultures and enjoying those cultures at the same time, allowing.

You know, a non-Christian culture to butt up against my Christian worldview and saying, what's the problem. Where's these? Where do these line up or these don't line up? In fact, before it was popular, I took a class called the psychology of gender on that ship. And we, we studied gender roles and religious roles [01:12:00] throughout these different countries.

I also took a a class on some of the contemporary history of some of the countries. I say all that to say, I, I, there, when I was about 2021 was when God said to me, Dave, you need to be learning what it looks like to be a man of God in the Christian worldview. And I want you to compare that to the rest of the world.

And that's what I had the opportunity of doing. Now. I can look back and say, that's, what's happened in the time that I was living this, all of this stuff wasn't necessarily like, as purposeful as what it sounds like. But I look back I'm like, Hm, that's what God was doing. And it was really good too, because at the time I was when I was learning all of these things, it was really eye opening for me.

It was really eye opening to, to understand some of the, the things [01:13:00] that Satan was going to start attacking. I mean, this is 2005. So we're 20, 21 now. So we're, we're, we're talking 16 years ago, 16 years ago, the whole gender thing was not a thing. The, as much of a, it wasn't very large you know, how people identify and pronouns and just how gender fluid people are especially on college campuses just even just homosexuality and gender in general.

Wasn't that large of a problem. In fact, I had a very, very close friend administry with me that came out as gay. And I was like, I don't care. You're a friend of mine. Let's just hang out. And he had, no, he didn't want anything of it. Like, he just was like, I'm done with, I'm done with the whole Christian thing and all of my Christian friends that was, that was hard for me at the time.

So all of these, these things are coming out. I know that, [01:14:00] you know I wasn't very political at the time either. In fact, I'm going up until 2008, you know, I, I was from the Northeast. I was, I leaned liberal. But at the same time, I, I don't think I'd ever really thought about it. But as I grew in my faith, my faith is going to impact my worldview and my worldview absolutely is going to impact my, my political stance on things.

So I think it was really important for me to to go through that learning and growing process. I think those two years were the years I read the most books. And it resulted in me starting a men's ministry at my church. And I'm thinking to myself, why does my church not have a men's ministry? And you know, I think I've heard of some, you know, ministries men's ministries in the past, and it's always, [01:15:00] you know, let's go out and shoot some guns and let's grill some meat, which is all good stuff.

I'll do that too. But where my heart was is like, so what does it look like to be a man? Because God, he prepped. He prepared me for that. I could have easily gone into college, found the wrong people. Never really got mentored, never really learned about these things and, and fell into a trap of, of believing lies about gender and, and male roles.

I mean, toxic masculinity is a bunch of crap. I'm sorry. God made man and woman, male and female. He created them to eat different. Yeah. I mean, of course my heart and my liver are equal, but different. I need them both or I will die. Men and women are equal but different. And if you don't get that again, write us.

Cause we really want to help you understand that. And then kindergarten and cough, I'm going to be blunt. Boys have [01:16:00] penis, girls have vagina. That is how you're born. That's your gender. If you have other feelings and thoughts, we'll work through them. But if a guy goes in the bathroom and my little daughter's in there, I'm not going to let him, because if he's got one issue, he could have more.

And that's sorry, that's the truth. There's psychological issues that go along with all of these conditions. And if you're listening now and you're a, cross-dresser, God loves you. I love you. I have no problem with that. But for the people who are screaming and making issues out of it, and they're really just trying to cause trouble and they're rapist pretending they can hurt other people.

Those are the people I have a problem with. And those are the people I have a pinata theory. And then we'll talk about that in another episode. Yeah. I, you know, it's, it's, it's hard. It's hard because there's a whole group of people that would say, oh, that was a very hateful thing that you just said. And you know, the, the reality is, is that [01:17:00] you're interpreting your offense with Hayden.

Explain that well, if you say something that's offensive, let's say boys and girls are different and you're offended. Let's say that the receiver of that message is offended. And, you know, I think that what's going on is that they're confusing their offense, which is what they have for your hatred, for the topic of what you're talking about.

That's not okay. That's, that's a completely irrational of train of thought. And I think that people need to recognize that just because we disagree with somebody on whatever that might be. It doesn't mean I now all of a sudden hate the topic or hate the people or whatever. You know, I think it's very cliche, you know, hate the sin, love the sinner.

And it's very, I, I think it's a little outdated. [01:18:00] But the reality is what we should really recognize is that we do need to call out sin for what it is. We need to call out what God has designed for this world and say, this is good and true and healthy. And at the same time have compassion on people who struggle with things because the person who is gay, you know, struggles with a sin, that's no worse than my, my propensity to be proud.

It really isn't in fact. Yeah. And I think, I think people don't say that enough. And so the question, but here's the thing, though. There's a difference between living your life as, as, as a gay person saying, I'm good with this and I'm going to act and act out my desires, according to where I stand versus me and my house saying, man, that was prideful.

I repent father for my sin. Help me be humble and give me wisdom to [01:19:00] understand it. There's a, there's a, there's a submission there to God, as opposed to rising above and putting yourself above others and above God. And I think that, I think that's the big problem is that people who live in their sin recognize it.

Like this is what I want to do. And this is what God says. I think that's the problem. It's not necessarily the mode of sinfulness. There's a lot of those. The question is, what's your response to your sin? Is it humility under God and saying, thank you, father, for your mercy, for your mercy, or is it you know, screw you, God, I'm going to do my thing.

And I don't really believe in you and rejecting his love and truth that he wants to give you. Yeah, I think biblically that sound, there's only the way I read the Bible cover to cover there's three general categories. There's blasphemy of the holy spirit, which means you reject Christ. You reject salvation, you reject the truth.

Then you have sins with the body and you have [01:20:00] sins without the body. Those are the only three categories I see that all their sins falling. And the thing is citizen. If I had a perfectly white outfit on and I needed to be perfectly clean for me to enter a building, if I have one stain or a thousand stands, I'm not perfect anymore.

I can't get in that building. And Jesus, whoa, sorry. I hit my mic. If you're not watching Jesus washes us clean and then it's always perfect. But yeah, what you're saying, David, you're spot on. I'm thankful for you. So keep going with your story though. Let's keep continuing in your story. I know you got to a point where you're on God TV.

You can talk about that and just everything God's doing in your life. So, you know college was a great, great learning experience for me. Lots of growth at that time. And then I graduated into grad school, went to Pitt for three years, got my doctorate from the university of Pittsburgh and started [01:21:00] my career as a physical therapist.

I can't, you know, I can't stress enough how much hard work that was. It kind of frustrates me a little bit when people talk about privilege because it's as everyone's, if you've heard the story so far I was not privileged. I had, you know, pretty much everything against me, low socioeconomic status, no father, I had drugs, alcohol crime all around me.

Okay. And at the same time really had no one to, to kind of lift me up or, or prop me up or send me in the right direction apart from God throughout this whole problem, if there was ever a privilege that I could claim it's the privilege of being a follower of Jesus Christ, there is privilege in that.

There is, you know I'm going to name drop Dr. Jim Harris. He wrote a book called our [01:22:00] unfair advantage and it's, it's an excellent book and it's mostly for business people. And so when we get to that, we will about how I started my practice. But the reality is, is that we have, as, as believers, we have this unfair advantage to tap into the holy spirit and ask him, what do you, what do you have for me?

What do you want me to be doing? And the reality is is that, you know, God's word does not come back void. So when he speaks things, grow, things are created. And the reality is. No, we do have that privilege as being believers. There is a privilege and, and there is a unfair advantage that we have in this world that everyone else who is an unbeliever does not have.

Aside from that I think instead of talking about color privilege or gender privilege, I think probably the largest privilege that you can have is a father [01:23:00] privilege. You know it's not even necessarily money. It's the father. In fact, there's a statistic that if you just do three things in this, in, in this world, you will live in the middle-class.

And the first one has graduated high school. Number two is don't have children out of wedlock, which speaks to the fatherlessness. And then the, the last one is get a job. If you do those three things, you will be in the middle class in America. There's a very low standard. And so if we're talking about, you know, success from a worldly perspective it's a very simple thing to obtain.

That doesn't mean you won't work hard. And that's kind of where I want to come from. That's why I brought this whole topic up is that, you know, grad school is very difficult. I lived in my room for two years while I, while I studied my butt off to get where I was at. And although I do believe that [01:24:00] God kind of got me into grad school and, you know, I wasn't always the best student.

I, you know pretty average. What was remarkable is the fact that, you know, hard work deal still gets you places. And you know, all you have to do is be respectful to those around you. You'll all you have to do is work, work hard for towards reasonable goals. And if they're big goals, then you can just break them down.

And that's what I did in grad school. I graduated. And then from there, I, and this is another thing I've had to overcome is that I graduated with $205,000 debt. So that is something that. You know, again, I didn't have the privilege of, of my parents helping me with, with that. And listen, if you did amen.

I'm like, go for it. You know, whether it's like, you know, getting a scholarship or, or anything like that's awesome. I [01:25:00] don't I, I don't compare myself to people in that regard, but I did spend the next nine years of my life eating ramen and Mac and cheese so that I can pay it off. Yeah. And that, and that's not an easy life and people don't understand that.

No. They think in America, business owners rich, and they made a lot of sacrifice most of the time to be there. And if they do have financial sacker wealth, they've paid their dues to get there. And like, you, you have a doctorate now you're a doctor of physical therapy. That doesn't mean you haven't made, you still got to work and pay off all that education and still live a life.

You know? Well, that's the thing is, you know, after I graduated I decided to do what we call travel PT. A lot of people are familiar with travel nursing. We did a lot of that. This last year. A lot of nurses traveled up to New York and some of the larger cities around the country for the COVID pandemic.

And [01:26:00] listen, you know, I was able to get tax breaks and take home a little bit more money and see the country at the same time. I'm already a big traveler. I love seeing new stuff. And so I did some traveling. To help pay down that debt, but it's not just about using a big shovel, you know, you also need to make sure that you're not pouring more dirt into your hole or, or dirt onto your pile.

Right. And so, yeah, I lived very modest means for very, very long time. In fact not only did I pay off $205,000 in nine years during those nine years, I got married, moved across the country twice and had four children. And, and again, like I remember living off of like the, the same budget for like, with my wife and I, as I personally lived on in college, in grad school.

And, [01:27:00] you know, I think people need to recognize that. Yeah, like the Mo a majority of millionaires are not millionaires because they inherited anything. I think it's like 80% of millionaires just, just saved, spent, spent less than they than they took in. Yeah. And you know what, the average car owned by a millionaires in America probably real low it's.

Yeah. It's a Toyota Camry. And then I, it fluctuates between a Toyota Camry and a Honda accord. Yeah. And that, that's just it. I mean, people have misconceptions based on Hollywood in the news, and those are the biggest lies. I mean, you might as well read comics. Yeah. So my wife and I we're big Dave Ramsey fans.

We didn't do the whole program. I still use my credit card and you know, we, we didn't always do the envelopes. But I thought the way that he went through the, the, you know, I think it's the zero sum budgeting is really important. Every dollar having a name [01:28:00] is really important. Ken Coleman, it's one of Dave Ramsey's.

He does the summer Saudis. Yeah. Yeah. He was on our podcast. He's a great guy and he's just straight down, just like we're talking about. Yeah. And I think it's important for us to realize that like, as much as the world says, like, Hey, you need others to do for you or having that victim. I think the victim mentality is one of the greatest lies of our time is, is whoa is me, others are at fault.

And I, I have, I'm a victim and I need you to help me in some way. Listen, you know, I could have just, I could have smoked pot. And as a young kid, I could have done drugs and, you know, been a part of gangs. I could have been a part of all kinds of crazy bad things. And I didn't, thankfully again, I attribute that to more of God being merciful than necessarily me being all that great that said, you know, when it comes down to it, our choices.

They matter a lot and [01:29:00] you can either choose wisdom or you can choose foolishness. I mean, those are the two you know, you read through the Psalms and Ecclesiastes, you use, you read through the Proverbs, you'll know, Hey, there there's a foolish way. And there's a wise way, you know? I mean, and I think that Americans need to understand that, you know, when it comes down to it, we are living in a time of foolishness.

There are fools out there, attributing their faults to others and feeling righteous about it and prideful about it. And that's a very dangerous thing. I mean, I mean, it's this Jesus said, you know, take the plank out of your own eyes before you inspect the Dustin someone else's. I mean, that's the reality that we live in is that the world ironically, is literally doing the same thing Jesus said not to do into Christians, obviously, you know, you know, and well, he said it to the Pharisees, you know, and, and here we are is, [01:30:00] is a overall a religious left leftist movement that is literally doing the same thing to the Pharisees.

Did. I mean, almost verbatim. I mean, it's really ridiculous. And we have to, yeah, we have to somehow tell people, Hey, listen, look inward first. You know. And why do you think people hate Jordan Peterson so much? If you guys haven't known, he look them up, he's pretty, he's blown up these last five years, six years, but I mean, his big thing is clean your room.

Why is that? Cause he's saying, look inside first, before you tell us how to do stuff. And I think that's a big, big thing that no, one's really, I think that's why he's attacked so much is he's literally speaking to troubled young men. And what he's telling them to do is clean your room, you know, which is the metaphor for get yourself in trouble.

And it's a [01:31:00] crucial, you start with the foundation and then you build everything upon it. And what, what does it process in my brain is this. Even if I wasn't a Christian, I look at everything through a filter of right from wrong black and white truth versus lie. And there is absolute truth. And like you said, CNC, accuser, Sans a liar.

He's the great deceiver he's trying to take away where pure like, oh, there is no absolute truth. There is absolute truth. If you jump off a building gravity at 9.8, two meters per second squared will take you to the bottom very, very fast. But when it comes to like Jordan Peterson and all anybody speaking, truth that black and white, that kind of approach is what we need and we need to have.

Right from wrong. We need to have black and white. We need to have something we can grasp onto so we can build a firm [01:32:00] foundation. Like the Bible talks about building upon rock, not upon sand. And today there's just so many people who Spoto craziness and I'm thinking, okay, evolution. The whole concept is something comes from nothing.

I mean, everything comes from something, but that means something came from nothing. That's impossible. So if you don't believe in God, that's fine, but don't believe that a cosmic fart started our life, right? Like this pen couldn't create itself. If I took my shoelace out of my shoe, put bolts in a box and shook it, I could shake that for 10,000 years.

And probably after a month, it's just going to dissolve the box, the shoe and the shoe lace things don't create, they degenerate. And then like what you were just saying,

everything that people are saying, you think this is even makes sense. Like, is there any form of truth in this? And if you're not a Christian, you're listening to this at least challenge what people are saying, [01:33:00] because you're having people say, save the earth from a threat. That's not there. And yet they're like a board of baby, a human life.

Why are you saving the earth to save humanity? But you'll kill like that. I mean, that just doesn't make sense. Think about what you're doing. So, you know, it's ironic when you need someone like Tom MacDonald to, to put together a rap song that says something along the lines of, you know, you know, save the planet for our children.

Why don't we, you know, make better children for our planet? You know? Like he starts one of his wraps like that and I'm like, oh my goodness, mind blown. And I'm like, that's exactly right. You know, we're trying to like, you know, we're, we're putting, we're reversing everything in the natural order right now.

And you know, it's, it's, it's one of the great it's historians are going to look back at our time. I mean, I, gosh, they're going to listen to [01:34:00] this podcast. They're going to say, why didn't they do anything about it? And, you know, I think it's a little harder, it's more, it's harder said than done. And it's easy to point out all the problems going on.

It's another thing to, you know, shape culture because politics is downstream from it. And we're losing the cultural battle, hands down, Christians, conservatives, people who are overall is kind of like not, whoa, we're losing the cultural battle, like hands on. And that's why we're not going to solve the world's problems here.

But we are going to help people because what we're saying is going across the world, people are going to listen and they may say, oh wow, boom, light bulb goes off. Or maybe they're like, Ugh, that's exactly what I was having that discussion with my son or daughter or friend, and they're going to afford it.

So look at Dave and I were trying to reach you and help you grow. Not because we're right, but because we're trying to take what we know is truth and help you. And then not all glorifies God. And then you can take this and spread it out to other [01:35:00] people and spread it out. And if we each change one or two lives, the whole world will be a better place.

You don't need to go to some foreign country. You can literally do whatever you're going to do at home. If God tells you to go to another country, go, but don't ignore your home. Because most people aren't going to leave their home. And that's a huge mission field right now, right where you're at. And that's the true state, especially in America.

I know the more people that know, I forget it made me sick. Like more kids in school could tell you about Marvel superheroes, like their whole backstory, but they didn't even know who Jesus is. Yeah. And that's just a sad reality right now. And it's not necessarily, it's obviously getting worse, but I was one of those I was growing up in a semi-religious home, a Christian home.

And I didn't even, I couldn't even tell you in necessarily, like what Jesus's role was. I mean, you know, going back to my young life experience, I, I got upset when they told me I couldn't do anything for my sin, you know, [01:36:00] so yeah, we're, we're living in some interesting political and really religious times.

But getting back to my story, please do. Yeah. After I graduated, I, I, I went and started doing travel physical therapy. That's actually how I met my wife. I was coming through Pensacola. We met, got married within a year. And then we moved to Colorado and then we had the opportunity to move to California for four years.

And it's interesting because here I don't have as much fun doing the conversation having conversations cause most people are ideologically very similar to me. Pensacola is a very conservative Republican red area. And, and California, we lived in Santa Rosa and we were [01:37:00] really odd balls cause we were, I mean, churches were only like house churches out there.

And you know, what was really interesting too, is that churches in California by and large are quite strong. Because there's, it's, counter-cultural to be a Christian out there, here in Pensacola, you know, or a lot of people in the Bible belt, everyone's a Christian and everyone believes in Jesus, but then you've got lukewarmness, which is not all that healthy.

But it's the worst. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they find himself says, I'd rather you be hot or cold, but lukewarm, I want to spew you out of my mouth. That's right. And so in California, you know, we, we found some really good church. We were part of for a couple of years. You know, again, just living with very, very simple means.

And by the time we left we just couldn't afford it any longer. Expenses got too high. We started having those kids. And so we moved back here to [01:38:00] Pensacola and that's when things really changed a lot for my career because at that point, you know, we're, you know, my wife and I were going through a lot of changes in the family.

Obviously we had to move across the country and it was really there was a lot of challenges that we had to face in our marriage. Not like, not like bad ones, not like. No, no. What are we going to do? Are we going to get the forest or anything? But, you know, I think that the challenges that we were facing were how to, how do we address the differences that we have in a way that's productive?

My wife and I, we personally aren't, you know, we're, we're not, when we said I do. We said I do for life. There wasn't anything that was going to change our, our desires. And with that background, we said to ourselves, okay, well, how do we [01:39:00] fix this? Because we're stuck with one another, you know? And you know, we, we got through those challenges and I think a lot of that had to do with the addition of our children, you know it really exposes children are excellent reflection reflectors of your sin, and they're really good at exposing your sin towards your w your spouse.

And so those were things that my wife and I, her name was Beth had to address along the way. And those years leading up to coming back to Pensacola and you know, I think that the, the challenge during those years were, was a lot of taking what I learned in college and implementing it. I had a, I'm not going to get into too many details, but I had some, some health issues when I was 30.

I'm 36. Now that really took me out. And I think that when, when that happened [01:40:00] I mean, I was a marathon runner. I mean, I didn't even bring that up, but you know, I've been running marathons for a long time at that point. And when I could barely run three miles, I mean, I knew something was wrong and I was pretty.

And during that time you know, it's interesting is when my main symptom was fatigue. I couldn't, I struggled to get through work days and really keep my mind clear. And one of the things that put struggle w one of the things that was produced in that was a large apathy towards God, a large apathy towards you know, my family, not because, and again, this, there wasn't a heart issue.

It was a true, I was just trying to live. I was just trying to survive, but the enemy creeped in quite a bit you know, with lies and kind of creeped in with how, you know, how I should be thinking about whether it's my family, my wife, or whatnot. And so I think those were [01:41:00] the, those were probably some of the hardest years for our, for me relationally.

And it wasn't until I was healed that I can start the fog lifted and I can look back and say, oh my goodness. And my wife and I were able to make some of those corrections, but it's interesting to me. When you chop off the head of the family. I mean, I think you alluded to it earlier, how much chaos can Sue and I obviously will take some, some fault in that at the same time, it was incredibly difficult to keep my mind, even the street with how, how sick I was.

And so now if you don't mind, what did you have and how did you get better? I'm not going to get into too much what I had. I will say that I did end up having to go through a naturopathic doctor to actually be healed. If let's just say this, if I hadn't been healed, I would have been diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome.

Okay. [01:42:00] Got you. Yeah, I got you. And it was, it was, it just took me out a big time. I remember I would go to work and I would I'd come home after five hours. I would just I'd pass out. I couldn't, I couldn't do it. I would, I'd be, I was doing home health, which means I was going in my car, driving to homes and then go into the next home the next home.

And I remember sitting there in my car, working up the energy just to get out to the next person. And I was like, okay, I'm just going to sit here with my eyes closed for 10 minutes, just so I can get up and do my thing. For the next 50 minutes. And that, that took a toll on us quite a bit. Oh yeah, absolutely.

And I know we have listeners now that are in the exact same spot. They can get off their coach or out of bed, but they're listening to this episode. What would you say to them to kind of help them to get healing now, every medical case is different, but [01:43:00] to diagnose, to start moving forward, what are some steps you'd recommend to them to get?

Well, I don't know. I don't know. I feel as though what happened was, is my, my wife had a friend in our church that was helped by this naturopathic doctor and, you know, the results spoke for themselves. And so we went, sought her, her advice and she came up with a diagnosis and helped us get through it.

I wouldn't say this I would be extra critical of your medical providers. And you know, we can get into the medical world and the little bit that that's my life right now. It's kind of how I'm living is, you know, running my own medical, you know, my physical therapy practice, but I don't think in America, especially, but I would say most patients are not nearly as.

Critical as they should be of their medical [01:44:00] providers. I think we, we listened to our doctors and say, well, that's a doctor said, well, guess what? CS get degrees. Even in medical school. Yeah. I love it. I just told somebody that the other day I just said, what's the doctor called it graduates first. And it's class doctor.

What's a doctor that graduates last in his class or her class doctor. That just because you're a doctor doesn't mean you're good at it. Yeah. And here's another, so I've another problem I have with people is it's not necessarily like, oh, you know, so I really liked him. He was nice. I don't care if your doctor's nice.

Does he know what the heck he's talking about? That's what I care about is your surgeon steady with the hands? Is your epidemiologist knowledgeable about the most common viruses and, and, and, you know, bacterial infections, you know, like that's, what we care about is your physical therapist. Is he, does he really [01:45:00] know how to manipulate the biomechanics of your body to relieve pain?

No, that's, that's what we care about. Yeah. And do they care? Like I had a, there's certain things I've struggled with my entire life and I just had to write off as, I don't know, I've had a ton of weird stuff happen to me, medically like really intense stuff. But Dr. Sonja Whittaker out of Pensacola. I don't know if you know her she's over at sacred heart.

She sat there and listened and cared and she's like, Hey, do you mind if I run some tests, come to find out I have a genetic disorder. She identified it, put me on a supplement. And after like 44 years, I'm finally starting to feel different and better in a lot of ways. And it was just because she took time to think through and identify what was the cause.

Not just a symptom she was treating and it was wonderful to see her. Yes. And I think that's exactly you, you, you mentioned it. The, cause I think a lot of times our medical, the medical world is one reactive and not preventative. [01:46:00] And then number two, it is much more symptom driven than root cause driven.

And if, you know, if you're constantly reacting to two symptoms, as opposed to being preventative of root causes, we're gonna constantly have a sick populace. Yeah. Like I have a hard time breathing right now. You know why? Because I gained 30 pounds and I'm fat. So when I bend over, I can't breathe the same amount of errands.

So there's a cause and effect here. So I don't need a doctor for that. I need to shut my mouth and exercise more. Well but then you got to ask yourself, you know, what is it that's causing you to either eat more exercise less right here, like a base of man. It was all mental, all depression and stress.

Well then there you go. And then you got to ask yourself, why are you depressed? Exactly. Keep tracking it down to get the root. Well, that's my point. And so I think that we need, so we can sit here and say, well, just exercise and eat better. Okay. Well, that's again, a symptom [01:47:00] it's all we're doing is treating a symptom.

What we should be doing is saying, Hey, look, well, what's the root cause of your, your, your you know, let's say your depression. Well again, I'm not a medical doctor, I'm a doctor of physical therapy, two separate things, but let's just go with it. If you've got depression, then the question is, well, why do you have depression?

Well, you can have depression for a number of reasons and your physician should take the time and have the understanding of what are the root symptoms of this, and then address it accordingly. You can have a genetic disorder that, that makes it difficult for your body to produce a reabsorbed, serotonin and therefore cause depression.

So now all you want to have zero levels. They had the chart where you have here's normal, here's mildly, here's moderate depletion. They put moderate with an asterisk. And they said from the co company in California, they're like, we've only seen this two other times. Like my levels were that [01:48:00] depleted. And there was from this genetic test.

Yeah. And so, you know, we say all this to say, you know, again, there are reasons for this and I mean, we can, we can even go into, you know, liver dysfunction, you know, why aren't you, you know, processing toxins out of your body. So therefore, you know, like why is that? Well, maybe you have a genetic melt, you know, malformation, or you have genetic coding.

That's just a little bit disrupted enough to, to render that protein, you know useless. And so, and that's what I do in my practice, just from a mechanical perspective with your body is I, I don't care where your pain is and I don't really care, you know, how bad it is. I want to know what's causing it.

And I don't. And a lot of time I tell my patients, I don't treat pain. I treat dysfunction, dysfunction, causes pain. So if I fix that first, the pain will go away. And a lot of times I'll treat something that you know, today. I [01:49:00] had a patient this morning. I literally just, I got home. I was working this morning.

Patients are still stick on sun on Memorial day and I was treating her and she's had chronic neck pain for three decades. And she goes, I just need you to fix right here. And she kind of held her shoulder and her neck Ray here. And I said, okay, do you mind if I look around at your shoulders and your shoulder blade today, she goes, I don't mind.

And so I figured out that it was mostly her shoulder blade. That was the problem. I fixed some of those things, those dysfunctions. And I said, ma'am, can you stand up and move your neck? And she goes, oh my gosh, my pain is gone. What did you do to me? And I told her, I'm like, man, I, I fixed the root cause of your problem.

That's why when you get your massages or when you go to your chiropractor, you, it always comes back. And the reason why it comes back, cause they're just treating the symptoms, listen, nothing wrong with chiropractic massage therapist, you know, like they have their roles and, and a lot of people I've referred to them.

Multiple occasions. I don't have a [01:50:00] problem with that. What I do have a problem with is any practitioner treating symptoms and not necessarily understanding where those symptoms are coming from. And so that's a lot of ways how I've built my practice is identifying those, those root causes of problems.

And listen, we're talking in the medical world, but the reality is that that's true everywhere. You know, you know, you, why do you have the symptom is angry, young men. Why do we have angry young men? Well, because they don't, we don't have the strict laws or we don't have good gun laws or we don't, you know, we, they aren't educated enough where they need to go to college or, you know, those are symptoms.

And they do not fix the root cause. You know what the root causes father was. That's what that is. And that's a generational problem that we have in many communities in America that I really wish that we would actually be willing to address, but it's really hard to have that conversation. [01:51:00] Yeah. And you can replace us with anything equals anything, but like somebody said, guns kill people.

Then that's like saying spoons, make people fat, don't be an idiot. That's not true. You know what I mean? The people who want to take away your guns and the people who want control. And then all you have left are criminals with guns and the innocent are getting their butts kicked. So w again, but at the same thing, like it's any concept, you know, nothing kills nothing.

It's the person. So go back to your story, Dave, let's continue in your, this is awesome. We're having a great conversation, but I want to respect your time, but keep there's no time. Don't rush. Don't belabor. It just be you man. But I want to make sure we keep getting back on the track. Well, I think we've gotten us pretty much up to the last year or so.

Well, it's been really interesting this last year too was the way that God was working in the development of my business and a little bit more of the career side of things. [01:52:00] Two years ago, Medicare came out with a, with a PD P D G M, which is a fancy way of an acronym that I don't know what it means, but of, of kind of like what it looks like to pay and reimburse for home health services.

So my wife and I came home, came back to Pensacola in 2017, end of 2017. We literally ran from the fires after having our son three days earlier, we evacuated from the fires and we never returned. We came here, we were kind of planning on it, but we just said, screw it. We're leaving now. So we left, we came here and I started the job with another physical therapy practice in the area.

And long story short, it wasn't a very good fit. I felt like there was a lot of lies being pulled and poor leadership in the company. So I left and I took up a home health position again again, they pay better and I was still in debt at the time. So I was like, you know what, I'll [01:53:00] just take off.

I'm not going to have my perfect job. I'll take a higher paying job. And so I did that for a year. No, there were, I mean, that's, I always tell people that I'm like, you want to find what God called you to do what you're passionate about. And normally the money flows when you're there, but in the meantime, as long as it's more, yeah, Take the highest paying job you can get and just keep working.

Yeah. And that's what I did. And so I did that for 2019 and at the end of 2019 is when this law was going to be implemented. And what Medicare did is that they essentially changed the way they reimbursed for healthcare services in the home health world. And they said, instead of every time you go, I'll give you X dollars.

What they said was give us the diagnosis code and a couple of other factors, and we'll give you a lump sum and then you deal with it. So. All right. Well, what does that look like? Well, let's say I get it [01:54:00] $4,000 to take care of, of, you know, Ms. Sally, who broke her hip. And she comes home from the hospital with a UTI, which is a urinary tract infection, which is a high risk of a lot of, a lot of people have when they come to the hospital.

Unfortunately, well, we have to pay for nursing to go out there and change catheters and do all that stuff. We need to pay for occupational therapy and we also need to pay for physical therapy. And by the way they also record Medicare, requires us to pay for all of the DME, which is like a walkers and canes and such and medical equipment, such as the catheters we have to pay for all of that from that $4,000.

Well, what that ends up becoming is you get for visits for physical therapy and two visits for OT and six visits for nursing. And you're not allowed to get any more because what ends up happening is you start losing money. When you go beyond that $4,000. And it sounds like oh, $4,000. That shouldn't be plenty.

Well, I mean, if you need like 10 visits and you're paying a physical therapist, [01:55:00] let's say, you know, $50 an hour, you know, which is a great salary. I'm not saying that very free, very few PTs make that necessarily, but let's just pretend for numbers. You're, you're already pushing like half of that money, you know, in that plan of care, just to take care of this person.

And you're not even talking about just the PT, but you're talking about OT as well. Well, what ended up happening was is my company started making cuts. They said, well, we we're, we're not gonna see this person 10 times because we would lose money. So you can only do six times. So the higher ups started telling me what to do in terms of my plan.

I would say, listen, this woman, she fell, but she's not, she's not going to be safe to leave the house for at least 12 visits. They're like, yeah, but you only have four. And I, and I pushed back, I pushed back and pushed back. I gave people hard times. I was, it was very unethical in a lot of ways. Yeah. And that's, what's sad.

That's the majority of our healthcare system right now. It's a money-making machine that the government and the healthcare [01:56:00] companies are in bed together. And it's not about patient care. It's not about what's best. It's not about what's, you know, even right. Statistically average, it's all about what's the, how can we spend the least amount of money and collect the most?

Well, I would, I would I'll push back a little bit. When you say healthcare companies, you probably have to quantify that. I meant like Humana insurance and the insurance company companies. Yeah. The insurance companies. I apologize because in the fifties, what people don't know is the, the government and the healthcare companies, those companies, insurance companies, they got in bed together.

And then Medicare sets the base rates and everything else is driven by that. So they're saying it's privatized medicine, but really our socialized healthcare started back then. And it's just growing into a beast, an evil beast every Monday morning. It is. It is. And so you're correct. That good clarification.

When you say health care, you mean the health insurance companies push back, dude, if I say something you [01:57:00] don't agree with, I have no problem disagreeing, but clarification. Super wonderful. So, yeah. Yeah. So what ended up happening with me is that I ended up getting a 40% pay cut at the end of 2019. And it was, it was hard because I had just had my fourth child, I just bought a house and I, you know, I, I was like, you can, you can't do this to me.

We had a contract and they're like, well, you can either sign here or. Sign or resign. We don't care. We'll we'll replace you. And so I signed my contract, a new contract for, you know, half of what I was making. And and from there I was like, okay, what am I going to do? Because I'm not going to be able to live off of this.

And by the way 2019 in October of 2019 I was, I was able to pay off the, the final bill of my of my, my [01:58:00] student loans. And so I paid $205,000 off in nine years. Nice, good job, man. Now people are like, oh, well, you're a doctor. You know, you make lots of money. Not necessarily a majority of that.

I worked a travel position, which had me uprooted every 13 weeks which I think is not something everyone was willing to do, but you do get paid more for that. I also spend a majority of my time in PA and California working two jobs. And so when you think of, oh, doctor makes lots of money, therefore, you know, of course you can pay all that off.

No, I didn't go on vacation. I didn't take time off and I didn't go out and spend money on Flavin Yom that I can do next week. You know, the reality was I spent my money on only the necessities and my wife and I would have monthly conversations about what we're spending our money on intentionally [01:59:00] so that we can pay off my student loans quicker.

And so there was much more sacrifice than having a bigger shovel than I think people realize side. So after I, I had the change, my contract, I ended up trying to brainstorm all we may, they'll get a second job. Like I've done that before. I couldn't find any jobs because PTs were being laid off because of this.

You know, you think about, you know, if you need physical therapy right now, you're probably have a waiting list. There's probably not enough. There's a national shortage of physical therapists. And here we are laying physical therapists off because we can't afford to pay them because Medicare cut things so bad that we can't even provide the right therapy.

Yeah. And that's, again, Medicare, it goes back to the government. It goes back to the government and then they charge 30 bucks for a damn aspirin, but then they cut what people need and they wonder why. So, you know what? I want to add a side note, anybody listening, this is an American law. I don't [02:00:00] know which countries enforce it internationally, but I don't know if you know those days, but if you're ever in that situation to sign a contract and you're really being strong arm or forced, you put a VC in your signature, did you know that?

No. Yeah. It's I don't want to mispronounce it's V co-actors and when you put a VC in your signature, it's saying I'm signing this because I feel like I have no other option. And then you can go back in court and say, you know, I, I can't leave my family homeless. I had to sign it, but I was being forced to essentially, you know, they're going in that gray area.

So in America, if you sign it VC, you can absolutely go back and refute that contract. So for that for not just for you, but for all the listeners in America, that's a little legal tip that they don't want you to know those bastards. Yeah, so, well, I like, I was being strong, armed a little bit. I didn't have any options.

So I did what I had to do, but during that time there [02:01:00] was a couple of friends that in my church that needed physical therapy one was in a pretty bad car accident and a few other people having some back pain that I, that I was willing to treat for free. And my one friend was like, Dave, you just need to do this on your own.

And I'm like, no, I can't, you know, like, you know, lots of problems and I don't want to have to, you know, do all the things. And I don't know how it looks to start a business. And I don't know what it looks like to take insurance and it's really hard to do, and I have to pay a biller and there's so much risk involved.

He actually did some legwork for me. He said, look, Dave, you can take cash, you can do cash physical therapy, and you can even just do it out of your car. And I was like, let me look into this. And so what it turns out and what it turned into is I started my own practice, the beginning of 2020 and it's called renew [02:02:00] concierge physical therapy.

And the idea is, is that we're going to take the middle man, the insurance company out of the equation. And we're going to, I'm just going to market directly to the consumer, the patient. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to solve problems that no one else can solve. And the great thing about my practice is that if I'm not good at getting you the results you want, you'll fire me because you're paying out of pocket.

You're not going to pay out of, you know, you're not going to be able to pay out of pocket. You're not going to pay me out of your own pocket for a service that you don't feel as very benefit. Right. And so really it's best for everybody. The reason why I went the, we call it a cash based route or the self-pay route is because of all the problems with the insurance companies.

See, I don't think people realize this, but as a medical provider, in order to accept your Humana or your, your United or blue, Florida blue, you know, [02:03:00] I need to enter a contract with that insurance company. And they'll say, we'll pay you X dollars per visit, whatever that is, 50 bucks, you know, 60 bucks. And that's it.

I can't charge you more, but what if I'm better? Or what if I want to, you know, keep my, my, you know, lights on, well, sorry you signed a contract. You don't have to take our patients. But if you do, you have to go along with this monetary amount that, you know, we we've agreed to. I'm like, I didn't agree to it.

You know, I liken it to this. Imagine going to best buy or go to your favorite electronic store. You walk in, you see the price tag of a thousand dollars for a TV, but you walk out with it and you give somebody a $20. And then they go, but, but we don't, we don't, that's a thousand dollars. We don't charge $20.

It's a thousand dollars. And then you saying, yeah, I know, but I'm only willing to pay 20. [02:04:00] So that's what you have to take. That's kind of the way the medical system works with insurance companies and Medicare is Medicare sets the rate and you either take it or leave it. And if you take, if you don't take it, you leave it.

That means you're not really, you don't have access to their huge network of. Yep. And they can change the rates midstream so budgeted and encountered on they cut from you. It's a, it's an absolute scam. It's one of the largest, it's a large scale scam. That's what it is. Well, what ends up happening is clinics.

So your normal physical therapy practice will, will operate at around 6% profit margin. Now, anyone who's business savvy out there will know this, but I'll, I'll let you guys, it's a very small margin. You should probably be in the 20 to 30% profit margin if you've got a bit obviously the higher, the better, if you're running a business and your mind is only set on money you definitely want it to be higher.

[02:05:00] But you know, physical therapy practices don't make very much money. I wasn't kidding. When, you know, the average PT you'll make anywhere from like, you know, 70,000 to 90,000 a year, that's kind of the average rate that we would make. And if you break it down, that's somewhere around 36 to $42 an hour.

Okay. The problem with this is, is that you, if you were to look at some of the contracts that these commercial insurances, so that's, non-federal Medicare, Medicaid, Tri-Care, you know, those kinds of plans are, are federal. The commercials are Florida blue, blue cross blue shield, Aetna, Cigna, those kinds of guys They only reimburse like 50, 60 bucks a visit for an hour session.

So if you're looking at it, you're like, well, I've got to pay my PT $42 an hour. And I'm only taking in 50. That means my profit margin is $8. That doesn't count rent. It doesn't count marketing. It doesn't [02:06:00] count. I have to pay my bill or $50,000 a year. I mean, the, it all adds up and you're just not making enough money.

Yeah. Now with practice insurance, all pro yeah, all sorts of other government mandated insurances taxes. I mean, I might pay a physical therapist, $40 an hour, but I'm actually paying $40 to him. And then $43 because of the taxes, the payroll taxes above that. I mean, the reality is, is that you're, you're really not.

You're really skimping if you're doing one patient per hour. So what these physical therapy practices will do. And again, this is why I'm saying, like I'm not going to sit here and berate and make my other colleagues in the medical world. I'm not going to harp on them. But they tend to, what they intend to do is double up on patients.

So instead of seeing one person for $50 an hour, I'm going to say two, let me, I'll make a hundred dollars in the hour. And now my profit margin starts to increase. [02:07:00] So we, I, in my mind, I call that just a PT mill. We're just hurting cattle because when you do that, you actually don't have an opportunity to do some of the things that are really necessary for your clients.

So for example, I'm a manual trained therapist. That means I put my hands on you, whether it's manipulating or mobilizing the spine or the joints, or doing soft tissue, like some type of massage techniques or release techniques. I it's what I put my hands on you to correct the problems. I can't do that, but to one person at a time.

So if I was doing the right thing in my mind for people, that means what I'm doing is doing the wrong thing for two others. Cause it's usually two or three people at a time and these clinics, or what I'm doing is exercise for everybody. And you only get maybe 80%. And if you're getting any percent better, well, you get what you pay for.

Yeah. And for Dave and I talk and I'm passionate about this, cause it [02:08:00] any kind of moral injustice pisses me off, but I'm also self-pay and I have been for years, but my daughter just had, this is a great illustration. She just tore her neon soccer had to have surgery, had to have physical therapy. And what Dave and I are talking about, we're not talking about at the doctor level, the problems at it's the organization level in the hospital level and the insurance company level and all to the government level.

It's just as high end greed because I remember being at my daughter's physical therapy and they're doing exactly what you're saying. They had actually three or four patients each and they're jumping around and they're using kind of to help each other, like a cooperative approach. And yeah, I understand what they're doing, but they're doing it because they have to, those PSTs know, they know they're not giving the best care and they want to give the best care, but they're going to get fired if they give the best care.

And I remember this one guy, he was one of the senior guys and he had [02:09:00] to like run to the bathroom because he had so many clients and then like alarms were going off because everybody was so busy and it's like, he can't even take time to go to the bathroom between clients. Because the pressure, the insurance companies put on them to turn patients.

So listen to, yeah, just to be clear though, you said it's the insurance company's putting on patient the pressures from the insurance company. That's not true. It's indirectly from the insurance. The hospital organization is putting, you have to turn this many patients, but what I'm seeing is because they want more money from the insurance company, it's all correct.

It's a sick broken cycle. So you're actually solving that cycle, even though it seems like more money talk about what you're doing and how that's really helping people. Well think of it like this, you know, if you've got the four people running around and, and listen, Dave and I, you and I didn't even talk about that.

I didn't even know that your daughter had that ACL, you know, and here we are. I'm [02:10:00] literally speaking to the very thing that you experienced and now you're like, oh, that resonates the reality. I wish we talked to three months ago. Well, Hey, you know, now, you know the, the reality is the way it works is instead of me going to the insurance company and negotiating a rate, that's actually detrimental to my business.

What I'm going to do is I'm going to go directly to you. The patients say, listen, these are my rates. And so. You know, when I set my rate based on the quality in which I want to give you now there are excellent physical therapists, echo, excellent doctors that take insurance. And I'm not saying I'm not discouraging you from using them.

If you have benefits, I mean, it's worth a shot. The problem is, is that a lot of times physical therapy gets a bad rap because we don't get good outcomes. We don't get good outcomes. Not because physical therapy doesn't work it's because physical therapy is working in a system that is in like unable to [02:11:00] produce the outcomes that we can get because of the constraints that we have.

And that's, what's really frustrating with all of this medical the medical people that we have in our country is everyone's saying, oh yeah, the doctors and the physical therapist, whoever it is, they're, they're just, they're rich and they just want more money. No, we're struggling. Okay. If you go to school for it to be a medical doctor and your primary physician, you're making $150,000 a year.

Listen, that is great. If you're only making 30,000 a year, comparing it to a lower, you know, a low paying job or, or somebody who's you know, working in a minimum wage probably make 25, 30,000. I understand that. But you also need to realize that in the business world, we, to. Oh, a rate commensurate to the problems that we're solving.

If you're solving the problem of flipping a burger, or if you're profiling solving the problem of something that people can do on a wide number of skillsets, [02:12:00] like, like everyone has that same skillset. Listen, I don't make a million dollars a year, but you know what? That one guy in the NBA that can shoot a ball into a basket, which isn't really that helpful to the world is making more to me because he solving the problem of putting the ball in the basket better than I can ever do.

All right. And do you know what is also not fair? I'm only five eight and I'm not going to be MBA, no matter how good I throw, shoot that ball, you know, and the reality is is that we are given certain gifts, you know, from God. Some people are smart, some people are tall, some people are fast, some people solve are very specific.

I don't think I'm all that intelligent. Although I do believe I am gifted in physical therapy. I say all that to say, you know, if you've got a primary care physician and he's only making them like one 50 a year and he had to go to like 10 years of school for that after high school. And he had to invest more money than I did in his education.

And he has to pay that off. [02:13:00] And insurance companies are saying, well, we don't really value that. And so what's he going to do is just going to see as many patients as he can for five or 10 minutes. Cause everyone's experienced that and you're going to be sent to a special. And that's not necessarily a bad thing either, but you also have to realize that, you know, you're not getting the highest level of care when the, when the physician is spending as much time documenting as he is spending time with you.

With what I want to do is instead of doing four patients at a time, I'm going to see one person at a time and I'm going to give you such good care during that one hour that you, instead of meeting David, how many visits did your daughter need from physical therapy? Probably in the 12 to 20 range. Yeah.

She had major surgery. She had anchors put in an inner brace and she, man, I mean, I lost count. I just pay the bills. Yeah. So here's the thing instead of doing like 20 [02:14:00] visits. Yeah. She had at least 20, I mean, for sure she was going three times a week and I mean, we're still, we just went to the doctor two days ago to get the follow-up, you know, check in on it.

But yeah, that's a lot. So David, most likely I would have taken the three times a week and given her one day a week and then Andy would have given you, and I'm assuming what happened is she went to the, the gym and they made her do a bunch of exercises. Yeah. And I actually do do want to point this out for those of you listening.

Cause you mentioned physical therapy. Judged harshly in the results or you're Charsy, it's not just because the therapist are overworked and not even giving the best care because you have some great physical therapists who are given amazing care and teaching the right exercises. But results depend on the patient too.

That's true. Like when you say my kids falling behind in school, okay. We have a broken school system. Everybody [02:15:00] knows we have broken school system, but it's still your kid. You're responsible for your kid's education. Your kid is responsible for their education. There's such a lack of personal accountability that when people go to physical therapy, but then they don't do any exercises till they come back.

That's their fault too. So we need to have personal accountability and we can't judge our daughters while we're getting better. And if we have a good quote, good quote, bad doctor, it's still our responsibility to find our issues ourselves. And get better, I would say. And that's the thing I do is I I'm very intentional about saying, listen, I'm just a piece of the puzzle.

I'm a guide. My job is to come alongside you and help you achieve your goals. Now, the good thing about a cash based practice or a self pay practice is that people who come to me truly want to get better. They're not going to spend $150 a visit with me, you know, saying, Hey I'm not interested in getting better, you know?

And I know the say $150 is a lot [02:16:00] higher than your $50 copay, but Dave, if you have 20 visits at $50 copay, but you only see me nine times, same price. Yeah. And you gotta I'm self pay. And I think they're, I want to say, I literally block it out. I want to see the visits were billed to me at 600 or 600.

Yeah. A visit and then they give you the self pay rate. And what's crazy is I'm paying more than the insurance companies who are corrupted set the rates and the government. It's just such a broken system. So most of the client, and that's a good, interesting point. So yeah, you should have met me a while ago.

Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I'm not trying to rub salt in them, but trust me, I want to, like, I feel like breaking some of these when I get these bills. Yeah. So what we would do so the problem with the an insurance-based practice is that they're not set up to, to house someone like yourself. What they're [02:17:00] designed to do is to build the insurance companies at these exorbitant rates and then write off the rest of the money.

So, you know, they might charge $600, but only getting reimbursed 75. Now, in your case, they are writing off, they're saying $600 and we'll give you yourself pay rate at two 50, but that's, that's what they have to do. Yeah. And it's ridiculous. Everybody knows it's ridiculous, but yet they won't budge. So I get paid.

I pay more than, than the insurance company. That's just wrong. Yeah. And so, and so what I want to do is I want to take a higher level quality. And that's the thing is I don't, I, a lot of people go, well, Dave, how did you do this? Well, I don't sell physical therapy. Physical, everyone has physical therapy.

Physical, physical therapy is not what I sell. What I sell is an experience attached to it now. That's what I want for you. So for example, instead of going three times a week for a month, you know, two months and you know, doing these, these exercises that you can do at [02:18:00] home, you know, what's your experience like with me, I'll come once a week.

I will do the manual therapy techniques that are required to make the exercises that I give you much more efficient. And I'll leave you to do your exercises once I check and make sure you're doing things well. And then on a weekly basis, I'll say, okay, now tweak it now, tweak it. Now, tweak it. Now tweak it.

Meanwhile, the experiences is in, in the comfort of your own home, I don't need a gym. I don't need fancy equipment. I never have, I never will. And they'll listen to, I have some higher level athletes that I work with. Yes. Do. At some point I do need to get you in a gym. Yes. And that's something I have available to me in other venues.

I can work out of a gym on occasion, but mostly 99% of my clients. And all of my visits are mostly in people's home in the comfort of you don't have to fight traffic. And that's why I call it concierge. Physical therapy is it's about you. I, and so for you, David, you know, when your daughter, [02:19:00] I don't work for insurance companies, I work for you, which means your goals are the top priority.

And I don't have to worry about documentation to make sure I get paid. I'll just write down what I need to, which is a lot less than what they require. And then I can focus more of my time and energy on it. When I was working in outpatient, I was seeing about 15 to 17 patients a day. Now I only see six at most and because I only see most the six people a day at most gives me about anywhere from 10 to 15 patients on my caseload at a time, it actually gives me the opportunity for you not to be a number.

And I don't think people value that as much because you don't necessarily realize how much us medical professionals are under so much stress. When I was working in the last outpatient clinic that I was working at, I was responsible for 150 people at any given time, about 70 were on my schedule. And about 80 were on my physical [02:20:00] therapy assistant schedule.

And I was responsible for the care of all of them. And there no one has the brain power or the bandwidth to manage all of that. No, absolutely not. It's like in management of a business, you should never really manage more than eight to 12 people because you just can't affectively do it. You need to have sub management and, oh, look at that.

The Bible once again, how many a, the disciples did Jesus had. Right. Bible's always perfect. But yeah, I can't believe what they put you through and put other doctors through and other physicians through. It's just unmanageable. It's not even real. And which, what hurts is it the patients that pay for it?

Yeah. Yeah. And you get this doctors that get completely detached and they don't care anymore because they've been run through the mill, but, well, let's do this. Let's continue. Let's wrap up your story from anything we've missed from your birth to where you are today. Anything we missed in there that you want to fill in before we [02:21:00] transition to where David's today and where you're going?

Yeah, well, we can, we can make that transition pretty easily. So at this point, this is, that's what my company is last year. I started a practice at the worst possible time to start a business in world history. I saw my first client in in February and then I was fired. March 9th from my full-time job.

And a week later, everything shut down last year. And so I was in a place where I'm like, okay, God, you th you know, I had all the systems in place. I had my documentation system ready. I had, you know, I had a plan. I I had formed a mint. A small council to refer to. So again there plans succeed in, in where there is lots of council.

Okay. I think there's a couple of different scriptures. I just conflated there. But the, the reality is that the [02:22:00] Bible is very clear a good king or a good leader in this case is going to be someone who seeks the counsel of others. I, and so I had three people men of God that I asked to be a part of this process for me.

And they, they were absolutely sold on it. And I started my business essentially in March. Then I saw like one or two people in, in February. My company was like, oh, you started a business. We're going to fire you. They said there was not a breach of contract. They said conflict of interest, conflict of interest, which, you know, they only take Medicare.

They don't take any other insurance and I don't take any insurance. So I, and my law at the time, my understanding was I couldn't take Medicare patients either because which is another issue in the law, but essentially there was no conflict of interest, but they were happy to find a, a reason to fire me because I know I wasn't paying in there, but but I was paying their [02:23:00] bumpy.

Cause I'm going to speak out when, when people are being No, absolutely. Just, just just backhanded about how they treat others and how they go about their, into the integrity of the business. And you know, they were happy to get rid of me. And so I had no job, new house, new baby in 2020 in a pandemic.

And I had to figure out a way and I just got fired. So there was no unemployment coming my way. And so I had to figure out a way to make money quickly. And so it was a lot of networking. It was a lot of listening to my counsel and March, April, may, June month, over month over month, my revenue doubled.

And I attribute that a lot to God's favor. I alluded to it earlier about Dr. Jim Harris, when he wrote a book called the unfair advantage. I really believe [02:24:00] that if you listen to the holy spirit, he's going to tell you who to talk to. And he's going to tell you how to run your business. He's going to tell you what to do and the benefit of you.

And during this time I learned what it was like to work hard, but not strive. And I found that when I was striving. Things didn't work out so good. I didn't get as many clients or as many referrals, but then as I, I took a step back and I said, no, God, this is you. You're going to do this for me. All of a sudden I got calls, I got phone, I got clients.

And you know, I think that was the main thrust of it all is me learning what it was look like to work hard, but not strive. And when I say strive, I mean, toil and those scriptures talk about toiling. And then it was actually you know, something that, you know, we need to, to, to veer away from. And if you're toiling, what you're saying is I don't trust God to take care of this.

So I will do this on my own strength. [02:25:00] And obviously Proverbs says lean, not on your own understanding but trust in God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind. And so in my mind, I'm thinking, okay, I need to trust God that this is, he told me that this is a good thing to do, and that he's going to make this work.

And so by the time June rolled around last year, I had a, I had a full schedule and, and this is from nothing. And this is trying to sell something that people can get for free or, well, relatively free, a lot cheaper. And if you have insurance and I think this also speaks to another thing that the Bible talks about, which is being, see a man excellent.

In his work. You'll sit before. If you're a Christian, even if you're not Christian, but if you're a Christian, whatever it is that you do, you must do unto the Lord and you must do an X. You must serve the people that you're serving or, or treat the, whatever it [02:26:00] is that you're doing, whether you're you're a trash picker or, or, you know, a garbage guy or a doctor or a lawyer got you flipping burgers, whatever it is you're doing, you all ought to be doing it with excellence.

You should, right. You should do it to the best of your ability every time. Because what happens is, is that hard work and that dedication translates to better opportunities. And I think that, you know, on a practical sense, one you're succeeding in and, and honoring God with your obedience, but then too, in a practical worldly way.

If you're working hard at doing something little you will be rewarded with something greater. And that's why, where, you know, we can, I'm sure we can go on a massive tangent about minimum wage and what that looks like. But ultimately if you can succeed with, with lower paying jobs, you will be presented with larger paying jobs, as long as you're practicing excellence as you go.

And in, in regards to my practice, I practiced excellence. [02:27:00] I put everything I have into every single patient to make sure that I take it personally when people aren't necessarily getting better, I need to switch what I'm doing, which happens, you know on a regular basis, you gotta, you start with a hypothesis, you treat it and it doesn't really work out.

So then you have to change it. You gotta, you gotta pivot a little bit to find the root cause maybe you're not on that precisely the way you want it. In July, I hired an assistant, like a like an executive assistant September. I hired my first physical therapist November. I hired my second physical therapist.

And then this past month I hired my third physical therapist. He starts with me one week from today. Nice. Congratulations. Thank you. And, and you say, congratulations, and I say, thank you. With the under understanding that I did not earn this, I was, I was [02:28:00] blessed with it because God's favor was upon me for my obedience and love, and my relationship with him and people can say, I'm crazy.

That's fine. I'm, I'm happy to be crazy and have a successful business and a successful marriage and great kids and all the blessings that I have in my life. If you noticed a theme throughout my life, it is this. I didn't do anything, all that special. I didn't get a girl pregnant when I was in high school.

I got a job when I graduated. I, you know, finished high school. I worked hard and I sought out the counsel of others that are wiser than myself. Anyway. Anyone can do that. You don't have to have an IQ of 152 to just listen to some wise people. And he doesn't mean you take everyone's advice, but what it does mean is you, you, you heed the counsel and listen to the wisdom that someone [02:29:00] else might have.

And it doesn't mean they have to have gray hair. It doesn't mean they have to necessarily be older than you. In fact, one of my, the guys on my councils, younger than me, my council, my, my, my support group, the guys that have helped me make business decisions. One of them was a year younger than me, and is a lot less educated in terms of, you know, college and doctors and stuff like that.

And I count all that as, as lost. I don't, I don't see me being a doctor to be anything. Oh, wow. Look at that. What it is though, is a title that I can use to better serve my patients and my, and people like you do need an education. You do need to have some kind of skillset in order to do a lot of things.

And so with, with my practice, I really get to use the fullness of my, of my doctorate because I don't have the constraints of the medical world bearing down on me. That's awesome, man. I'm so happy for him. Yeah. Like you're saying, [02:30:00] God gives us the vision, but we have to put the effort in, we have to do our best and accept our best and leave the rest to him.

So that's, it's so beautiful. Have a seat. Your prosperity and growth now for those listening, when they have this vision and they see the opportunity, what are some practical steps that whether God showed you directly, or whether he showed you through your counselor, what are the steps to take? Now?

Necessity is the mother of invention. In your case, you kind of had the fire behind you, but what are some steps to really that you learned the hard way fast that our listeners can do to start their own business or practice or get out of that rut? Well, I'm just going to assume you're a Christian, because if you're not, you need to become one first that's number one.

Okay. You need to understand that there is a God that absolutely loves you and will do anything. Listen, if you. If you have an earthly father and he knows how to give you good gifts, how much more will the, your [02:31:00] heavenly father be able to give you good gifts? The reality is that there is a loving, loving father that wants nothing but awesome news for you.

It's one of my greatest joys to give my girls like ice cream, because they just love ice cream. And it's so simple to them, but I love having them have joy if I am a sinful man. And I know how to give my daughter a good gifts, how much more of the father in heaven be able to do that. And so first and foremost, you need to recognize that there is a father in heaven that absolutely loves you.

And what's relationship with you. If you've already met that step well done, you are you already more prosperous than you will ever know in terms of practical steps in the world, what we can do again, when you first start your, your business, pray first, pray, ask the God, ask the father, what do you, what do you, what is this going to look like?

Give me that vision. What is it that you want father? God, because here's the thing. It doesn't matter what you want matters, what God wants. Cause if you, if you can align your heart with the vision the father has for your life, there's [02:32:00] nothing that's stopping that. If you, if you have a vision for any kind of business check yourself and make sure it's actually what God wants for you, because it might not be, you know, there, there are avenues that we can take that seem good and right to the world, but it might be foolishness.

And then the ways of man may seem wise in his heart, but again, it might be foolishness to God. And so I think you first just pray first and then be led by the spirit. So actually be constantly following what he's calling you to do. And I know those are all very religious or faithful answers.

Practically. It's very simple to get a business license. It's very simple to register with the government to open that up. It's very simple to get an LLC. All you gotta do is go online and fill out a couple of papers. I did it last year. I did it over a Christmas break. I think I actually did it on Christmas.

Like in my, in my, you know, on my couch [02:33:00] with my mouse, just clicking a button. Once you have that, I feel like it's real. And I think that there's a mental shift. Once you have like paperwork that says I am a business, it shifts, and now you actually believe it's real and you can actually start moving forward.

I think another practical step is separating out your finances, any income that your business brings in, have it, have it separated into a separate bank account that way you kind of know what, what you're dealing with with your expenses and what you're dealing with, everything should be operating out of that separate account.

Once you have your structure and your concept ready to go. I knew right from the get-go, my biggest problem was going to be marketing. How do I market myself? And there's Facebook ads and there's Google YouTube, there's you know, podcasts and, you know, there's lots of ways to, to market yourself. And what I found to be the [02:34:00] most helpful is that people do business with those that they know like, and trust.

That means in-person networking, which is really easy to do during a 20, 20 pandemic. Right. But w you know, the, the reality was is that despite the, the hardships of the pandemic, I still had opportunities to meet people, either on zoom or in other networking offered. There's just some things I was able to do.

But by and large if you go out there with a passion for whatever your business is, I really believe that people can see that and will say, okay, man, he's really passionate. Listen, if you asked me, Hey, Dave, do you want to work with a dry cleaner? That's not passionate or dry cleaner that is passionate about no wrinkles.

I'm going to go with the person that's passionate and you can, and if you have that passion, you have to let it out. And I would say you probably, if you've been listening or watching this all the way, you probably saw Dave was less passionate, and then you have [02:35:00] Dave talking about medical stuff, and now he's passionate.

Like that's where I'm passionate about more so than any other time. And that comes across as, okay. I can trust him. And, and I think that's really important that people will do business with those that they know they like, and they trust. And you get to that trust point by just building relationships.

It's not about going out to some, someone and saying, Hey, listen, I've got a, a honey, you know, I have a honey farm and I want to sell you my honey. Like, no, why don't you just go and hang out and be a, you know, you know, go to someone else's business and, you know, buy their stuff first. Or, you know, for me, you know, it as a physical therapist, you know, maybe what I'll do is I'll go to the gym and, you know make friends at the gym and people who are getting injured, I'll say, oh yeah, I can help you with that.

Or for me, a lot of my, my client base really grew out of my church. [02:36:00] And so I, I made a name for myself and my church, and now everyone comes to me and says, I need to see you. The, the reality is, is that people, when they people know and like, and trust you, they're gonna come to you first. And so that's, I think if you're going to do yourself a favor with marketing that's the thing that you have to do is you need to go out there and make sure people know, like, and trust.

Yeah, I am a marketing and sales guy. That's what I've done for my whole career. And what Dave saying is dead on. So great advice, great foundational business blocks. You've shared with us, man. Thank you. So between again, the beginning and where you are today, is there anything else we missed? Anything else we didn't talk about that you want to cover before we transitioned to where you go in and how can we help you get there?

Yeah. I think we've covered it pretty, I'm surprised you can go in a long time, but I'm, I'm happy to continue. Yeah, man, that's been great. That's the [02:37:00] format of our show. There's no time limit and people know they can turn on and off as they go and they come back and finish the episode. So question, I don't even know the answer to this, the God TV.

What did you discuss on that? Was it the same thing we're talking about today? Was it starting a business? What was that about? So yeah, I had the opportunity to be interviewed on God TV, which is again another international and they're, they're very big internationally by Rick Marshall, who it has written a book called God at work.

And he's also got at rest. I think he even wrote a second God at work. Number two, I think he's, he's big about the, the Christian and the entrepreneurial world and what it looks like. And so I was asked to be on, on his show and it hasn't aired yet, but essentially we, we took that time. It's a 30 minute interview to [02:38:00] discuss you know, how God has been faithful in my business.

And we really discussed, again, a little bit of what we touched on, which is how did I grow a business that normally is paid for by a third party, during a pandemic to the, to the point where I didn't have any clients, pandemic hits, everything shuts down and then month over month grow to the point where I've been able to hire three doctors underneath me all in a matter of a year, which, and I did this in the time in which in a, in a, in a time in which most PT practices are shutting down, physical therapists are being laid off.

Everyone's losing their jobs. Everyone's going virtual. And I'm an EV all these small businesses, which is me on the small business are closing down. And I really attributed again to the favor of God. Listen, you know, I talked about, [02:39:00] you know, getting out there in person networking listen, there's favor upon you as a Christian.

And I felt that so strongly this year, and I felt like this last year, you know, I felt like Gideon, you know you know, God's like that's too many. And so he, he wanted to make this last year seem so insurmountably, impossible, you know, to, to do on your own that it was so you couldn't say, Hey, Dave does a great job.

He's a physical therapist. He's he fixes everybody. And it's all based on how good he is. He's such a great marketer. The success that I've seen is so great in the face of such great odds that you can't say, oh yeah, the 300, really. They were just such good worriers. They just destroyed the thousands, tens of thousands of people after them.

No, that's not possible. [02:40:00] And I feel like that's, I think really important to me. That I really believe that the favor of God was upon me throughout this. I would, I would meet with one person and then that person would see me and then that person would turn into three more patients. And then those three patients would see me.

And then those three patients each gave me three more clients and so forth. And what have you just kind of grew? And you know, I think all along this journey, I spent time. Most Monday mornings in what I would consider a strategic intercession for my business. And what does that mean? That means I'm specifically asking God, what do you want me to do this week?

Who do you want me to see? What is it that you have in store for me? What do you want with your business? And, you know, I always tell people that renew is just an entity in which for me to serve now, is it a business? Do I need to make money? Do I need to pay my bills? Do I need to provide for my family? Do I need to pay payroll now?

Yes, of course I do. And, and, you know, [02:41:00] yes. But, but it's fortunate first and foremost of ministry. I get to, I get to talk about Christ with my patients. I get to pray over them. I prayed to pray for them as I drive to their homes. This is a ministry I've had the opportunity to administer to my employees.

You know, I, it just so happens that all of my, my employees are believers. And so that means I get to speak into their lives in a ministerial way. And, you know, that's important to me, that's how I'm going to run this business. And I took the time when had gotten TV to kind of outline what that looked like.

And it was, it was. The more you look at my business. I think the more you would see the footprint of God. And if you don't, I either it's either you're blind or, you know, you're just not looking hard enough. That's awesome, man. So [02:42:00] where's Dave today and where are you going so we can help you as listeners get there?

Well, like I said, I'm I'm going to start training my third PT next week. Which is good. Cause I'm, I I've been working really hard. So, you know, I think people think, oh, business owner, you're, you're making all this money and you're doing all these things. And in fact, I don't think I look back at 2020.

I I was blessed enough to, to make enough to pay my bills. But this year I'm really hoping that I, I maybe even have the opportunity to triple what I did last year with the help of my colleagues. And one of the things that I don't think people realize is that I averaged about 12 to 14 hours of work a day last year.

I just want that to sink in to those that think that small business owners are, are reaping, you know, [02:43:00] reaping all the, all this money. You just work an hour a day and go to the beach for the rest, right? Oh yeah, of course. You know, that's total sarcasm if you can't figure that out. Yeah. I, I, my hourly rate was definitely worse last year than ever before, you know, but this year it's going to be different because I won't have to, I'm still gosh.

W today I saw some clients I've got about 30 people on my schedule this week. You know, so I am quite busy. But with the help of my colleagues, I'm gonna be able to offload some of that caseload so that they can live their dream, because the reality is I'm not the only physical therapist burnt out with the system.

And there's lots of people. In fact, the PT that's hot, starting with me next week is moving from West Virginia to come down here because he sees the value in being able to treat the patient not, and not let the patient be the product of, of, you know, [02:44:00] a system that fails them. And, you know, how can you help me?

Well, you know, I, I've got all that help I need from God. I'm good. I know I'm good. If you need help, we're here to help too. And I know around the world, we, we can't necessarily treat around the world and I know tele-health, we could do some of that. However we need to have a license in the state in which you live in order for for us to treat you so most likely if you're not in Florida, we can't help you from a physical perspective, even on tele-health.

However, I will say this this isn't about me being helped by you and your listeners. I would much rather people be blessed by some just this testimony and the the how learning, how good God is, and being encouraged to, to step forward in faith. [02:45:00] I think entrepreneurism is by far the best thing to kill poverty.

If you want to be out of poverty, open your own practice, open your own business and start selling something that people need and want because, and you can sell trinket. I mean, what was it like two years ago? Like someone came up with a fidget spinner, like what the heck and overnight it was this massive thing.

And listen, you don't have to come up with like this. You don't have to have all these skills. You don't have to have these great ideas. All you need to do is solve problems for people. I mean, I know I've got people who start lawn care businesses. You don't need too much skill that to start now, listen to there, there there's certain, there's some people that just know how to push a mower and then there's some people that, you know, know how to do all the good stuff and, and take care of lawns.

I'm sure. But my point though, is that you can start off real small. In fact, my, my [02:46:00] brother who fast forward a couple decades after some of the troubles he's been in started his own business last year, knowing lawns. And he started with a push mower and then he made $2,000 and he bought himself a tractor and then he made another $2,000 and he invested in more and like another weed Wacker and then a truck.

And and you know, he's investing in himself and take to help help me by helping, you know, taking what I'm giving you and putting it into practice, putting into words, putting it into, and it doesn't have to be in the business sense. It can be in the personal life help me by, by storing up trees and heaven for me by you using my testimony.

You know, I think that's how I would be blessed is that if somebody took away something from his testimony and said, wow, you know Dave was able to be blessed by God. I, I can be too. Because what, what really is important to me is that our country, as [02:47:00] a whole gets back on track with, with job job, the joblessness, you know, I think that it's really important that we.

You know, get back to work, you know? And, and I think people need to get away from the victim mentality quite a bit. And if you can get away from that man, that would bless me such in such an amazing way. That's fine. Yeah. And thank you so much. And you've helped us for a couple hours now, so I want to be able to help you and you're still giving back to our audience.

So thank you. And I know before the show, we even talked about a special offer. You wanted to leave for our remarkable community. But before you do, I want to mention this, Dr. Dave can't legally give you medical advice in many states, however he can coach you and that's completely legal. So Dr. Dave, go ahead and you told me about the offer.

You want to offer our [02:48:00] community and thank you for it. And for the listeners out there, you can write it down. You can go right on your phone. If you're driving, don't do that. It'll be in the show notes, come back and get it when you're safely parked. Go ahead, doctor. Yeah. So I think there's a couple of things.

If you're in the Pensacola area, we also have a location in Fort Walton and Panama city. So if you are in those locations, we normally charge 170 for evaluations. That's 75 minutes long. If you wanted to be in, get an evaluation and just mention this podcast and that that $170 eval is only going to be $50.

Okay, thank you. Yeah, we have a couple of, I think we have active in the Pensacola city, not even all the surrounding, we have over 1200 people actively listened to the podcast. So hopefully if you're listening and you need PT, or if you want to avoid needing PT, go get yeah. And listen, you're going to get the best I had.

I would like to believe the best physical therapy experience that you'll ever [02:49:00] have with the renew. That's my vision. You know, Dave, you asked about what that vision looks like going forward. I want to be the premier physical therapy practice where people are saying, I know it's a little bit more expensive, but I also know I'm going to save myself more money in the long run.

And I think, I think that's exactly what we're referring to. When we talked about, you know, delayed gratification, you know, you could spend a thousand dollars with my practice and get yourself back in order. And what you're doing is you're delaying the gratification of other things so that you can be wise about your physical health now.

You know, so obviously if you, you hear about us and you want us to come directly to your home or place of business the $50 valuation, it's a very low risk for you to at least find out the root cause of your problem. We'd be happy to do that in, in our three locations, if you're abroad [02:50:00] I'll make sure David has my email address.

And if you have any questions that you're dealing with, just like David said, I'd be happy to answer, answer some basic questions or at least point you in the right direction with some of your medical problems. I'd be happy to do that for free. It is, you know, when God, when I first started my practice, I said, God, who do I want to work with?

You know, and what w you know, I said, God, I wanna work with athletes. I wanna work with runners. I got that running background. I'm a marathon runner. I want to, I want to be able to really do all this stuff. And God says no. And I said, well, what do you want me to do? And he said, I want you to, I want you to work with chronic pain patients.

And I was like, that's hard, you know, are you sure? Are you sure you want this guy? Cause that's hard. And he goes, no, I want you to, I want you to work with chronic pain. And I asked, well, why is that? And he says, David, I need you to go heal my people so they can work. And it might sound crazy. But it [02:51:00] turns out that God was right, but that was the, where I should have been.

And, and, you know, listen whether you're a chronic pain PT or, you know, working with triathletes, you know, w we all use the same techniques. It's just, some things are a little harder than others. Sometimes there's a little bit more of a puzzle with the chronic pain versus you know, someone running, running too much and has some tendonitis in his knee or something.

But I've very much enjoyed this journey this last year, working with people who, who have sought out medical professionals without the results they're looking for. There have been multiple people that I've, I and my team have been able to get off of pain medications that they've been on for 20 years.

In fact, this past month I was able to help a patient avoid neck surgery. She, she had it scheduled for June 1st and she is not getting her surgery tomorrow. She canceled [02:52:00] it last week. I know it's a wind man. Anytime you can avoid surgery, it's a win. Yeah. And if somebody doesn't know that you want to avoid all surgeries, unless you absolutely need it.

But when it comes to neck and back, that is like literally a last resort. That's right. It is. It absolutely is. And I think that's where a lot of people go wrong is that they do, they go see the medical world and they see, they might see two surgeons for a second opinion, but no one ever gets a second opinion for a physical therapist.

And I guess with your listeners here, you're going to have a second opinion for 50 bucks. And, you know, if we really are getting the right outcomes, if we are growing this much, we are practicing excellence. And that's really important to me going forward. I, I don't know if the franchise world is the right for me, if the only way I would ever franchise is if there was a way to maintain the quality that I want to offer.

[02:53:00] And I don't, I don't know if that's a way, if there is a way to systemize that a little bit more, maybe it is. But I think that ultimately I want to be able to change the way people view physical therapy, because they're getting the results. They actually are paying.

You are awesome. My brother will Dave, thank you for being here today. You truly are marketable guy. I look forward to remaining friends and growing our friendship and we're right in Pensacola. So that should be easy. Right. Ladies and gentlemen, you've heard a lot. We've gone deep and wide. And what we've covered is usual.

I know this was a longer episode, but I think it was worth it. Take this episode, share it with people. You know, again, the most important thing is our Aternity Dave. And I talked a lot about that. If you have questions, reach out to Dave and I, if you have physical therapy questions or medical questions, Dave gave a great offer, $50.

[02:54:00] Also give him an email and he'll be able to help you as much as he can. So like our slogan says, don't just listen to this great content, but do eat each day repeated each day so that you can have a great life in this world and in the attorney to come, which really matters because this is only a grain of sand compared to everything.

So I'm David Pascoe alone. This is the remarkable people podcast. Dr. Dave, you truly are remarkable. Thank you for being here and to all our listeners all around the world. We love you. Listen to this episode, listen to other episodes and we'll see you next week. Ciao.